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Old 12-10-2017   #16
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Re: Panda Twin Air ignition issues

Quote Originally Posted by babbo_umbro View Post
That sounds highly unlikely - as it would give the engine a permanently open hole in the head (!) hence no compression - or no controlled means of allowing the air/fuel mixture to enter the cylinders - I thought the valve opening was a combination of camshaft and hydraulic control.
Not quite as unlikely as you'd think!

Yes, this engine has valves, but there are plenty petrol and diesel engines without any valves that run happily.

Piston port 2 strokes have nothing but the piston to control the intake and exhaust timings.
No valves, discs or reeds, just the movement of the piston uncovering ports cut into the cylinder walls that allow fuel and air in and exhaust out.


Back on track, low oil can and has caused a few running issues with the TA's, though it's difficult to say if yours is suffering from this.
https://www.fiatforum.com/500/453880...-stalling.html

I've have thought with all the dash lights and warnings, there would be a code stored, even if it's only a pending fault.

An oil change isn't going to break the bank though.
Only use the correct grade and spec of oil, it's vital.

Oh, never ever rely on the oil warning light.
By the time it triggers it's usually far too late for the engines health.
Check your oil every 1000-1500 miles with the dipstick (if you can read the bugger!)
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Last edited by Goudrons; 12-10-2017 at 19:08.
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Old 12-10-2017   #17
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Re: Panda Twin Air ignition issues

Quote Originally Posted by Goudrons View Post
Not quite as unlikely as you'd think!

Yes, this engine has valves, but there are plenty petrol and diesel engines without any valves that run happily.

Piston port 2 strokes have nothing but the piston to control the intake and exhaust timings.
No valves, discs or reeds, just the movement of the piston uncovering ports cut into the cylinder walls that allow fuel and air in and exhaust out.


Back on track, low oil can and has caused a few running issues with the TA's, though it's difficult to say if yours is suffering from this.
https://www.fiatforum.com/500/453880...-stalling.html

I've have thought with all the dash lights and warnings, there would be a code stored, even if it's only a pending fault.

An oil change isn't going to break the bank though.
Only use the correct grade and spec of oil, it's vital.

Oh, never ever rely on the oil warning light.
By the time it triggers it's usually far too late for the engines health.
Check your oil every 1000-1500 miles with the dipstick (if you can read the bugger!)
Sound advice.
I always advocate doing an extra oil and filter replacement at half the recommended intervals. This is a fall back to rep cars that can do longer mileage without servicing.
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Old 12-10-2017   #18
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Re: Panda Twin Air ignition issues

Quote Originally Posted by trekkingpaul View Post
Just recently, about 2 minutes after starting the car, it runs roughly then the engine warning light and general warning light come on, and the car loses power. I suspect this is some sort of shut down/safety mode.
If I park and then restart the engine, it runs OK but the general warning light stays on ( but engine warning light off ). After another few mins if I stop/start again, all warning lights go off and the car drives great but with "stop start unavailable" warning message on screen, and the stop start light on the button activated.
Just reading this again and a few things jump out.

"about 2 minutes after starting"
This will be around the time the engine ECU will change from a cold start strategy to a warm running one.

One of the main alterations it makes then would be to the fueling. (though I presume as it can control the valve strategy as well, this would also likely alter between cold and warm running)


I suffered from this on our old 2007 Panda Active, similar cold start issues with all good on a hot restart.

Logging the fueling with a diagnostic tool, it kept tripping into a safe fueling mode after a cold start up and running like a dog, uneven idle, rough lumpy running, no power etc, but went straight to closed loop after a warm start and ran perfect.

I checked and rechecked everything, coolant sensor, O2 etc and it all appeared good.
It was only when I compared the resistance of both O2's heater circuits did I notice the upstream was different (both were identical parts on that model).
Swapped them over and all was good.

I reckon the original upstream O2 sensor heater was too slow so if failed to warm up and fuel correctly until everything was hot and it'd been restarted.
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Last edited by Goudrons; 12-10-2017 at 20:02.
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Old 13-10-2017   #19
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Re: Panda Twin Air ignition issues

Quote Originally Posted by Goudrons View Post
..
Piston port 2 strokes have nothing but the piston to control the intake and exhaust timings.
No valves, discs or reeds, just the movement of the piston uncovering ports cut into the cylinder walls that allow fuel and air in and exhaust out.
...)
Yes, I know about two strokes - and alternatives to poppet valves, such as sleeve valves, and rotary heads - but this is a four stroke.
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Old 13-10-2017   #20
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Re: Panda Twin Air ignition issues

Might have made some progress with this issue. I put some additional oil in the engine, and also set the engine into ECO mode. Ran perfectly this morning with no loss of power, warning lights, nothing!
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Old 13-10-2017   #21
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Re: Panda Twin Air ignition issues

Quote Originally Posted by trekkingpaul View Post
Might have made some progress with this issue. I put some additional oil in the engine, and also set the engine into ECO mode. Ran perfectly this morning with no loss of power, warning lights, nothing!
Hi.
You say you put additional oil in the engine. At what level was the oil at on the dipstick proir to topping up? Excessive oil is as damaging as low oil, seals can be compromised and crankshaft webs hitting the oil in the sump causes the oil to get aerated and results in low oil pressure. Also did you add oil of the correct spec?
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Old 13-10-2017   #22
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Re: Panda Twin Air ignition issues

Dipstick very hard to read! Looked slightly low but nothing major. I only added maybe 100 - 200 ml of oil. The correct oil. I have just done my normal 25 mile commute and all good.
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Old 13-10-2017   #23
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Quote Originally Posted by trekkingpaul View Post
Dipstick very hard to read! Looked slightly low but nothing major. I only added maybe 100 - 200 ml of oil. The correct oil. I have just done my normal 25 mile commute and all good.
You wouldve hoped that the FIAT dealer would have somebody on their books that could decipher a dipstick...

Lets hope this works for you.


Mine has done 30k miles now.
Oil level holds fine and no running issues.
Just battery age means the S-S no longer works..and the GM floorpan means the ride is still poor.

Does good mpg though..so happy enough.

Charlie Cardiff- Oxforf
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Old 13-10-2017   #24
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Quote Originally Posted by babbo_umbro View Post
Yes, I know about two strokes - and alternatives to poppet valves, such as sleeve valves, and rotary heads - but this is a four stroke.
Thanks for the informative post..
My reply was based on things Id read..no experience of working on my TA.

I REMEMBER A SIDE VALVE engine being revisited by a niche manufacturer a few years ago. Anyone remember the 3cyl 2 stroke ford fiesta..?
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Old 13-10-2017   #25
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Re: Panda Twin Air ignition issues

Quote Originally Posted by varesecrazy View Post
Anyone remember the 3cyl 2 stroke ford fiesta..?
Not aware of that one, though I hear Renault are messing with a two stroke diesel engine.
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Old 13-10-2017   #26
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Re: Panda Twin Air ignition issues

Quote Originally Posted by Goudrons View Post
Not aware of that one, though I hear Renault are messing with a two stroke diesel engine.
Two stroke diesels go back a long way. Remember the Commer vans with them?
How about the Tatra V8 air cooled diesels. Amazing.
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Old 13-10-2017   #27
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Re: Panda Twin Air ignition issues

Quote Originally Posted by murphyv310 View Post
Two stroke diesels go back a long way. Remember the Commer vans with them?
How about the Tatra V8 air cooled diesels. Amazing.
What's that sound? Can't hear anything? That'll be the 1.2 ticking over then. Bliss.
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Old 14-10-2017   #28
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Re: Panda Twin Air ignition issues

Sounds like a familiar story, I posted a thread a few weeks ago.

After much swapping of coils O2 sensors etc was finally diagnosed as uni-air module by dealer. They jumped on the contaminated oil theory possibly since it had been serviced outside the dealer network...

Let's hope this is not the issue in your case.
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Old 14-10-2017   #29
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Re: Panda Twin Air ignition issues

Quote Originally Posted by trekkingpaul View Post
Dipstick very hard to read! Looked slightly low but nothing major. I only added maybe 100 - 200 ml of oil. The correct oil. I have just done my normal 25 mile commute and all good.
Yes - Fiat decided to have a committee to design the dipstick and some - dipstick - decided it would be a good idea to make it oil-coloured.
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Old 14-10-2017   #30
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Re: Panda Twin Air ignition issues

Quote Originally Posted by trekkingpaul View Post
Dipstick very hard to read! Looked slightly low but nothing major. I only added maybe 100 - 200 ml of oil. The correct oil. I have just done my normal 25 mile commute and all good.
The dipstick is indeed pretty crappy. With a warm engine it's impossible(to me) to get any kind of dependable reading from it as there's also a lot of oil high up on the dipstick. Most people do the reading with a cold engine, not the best way but in this case probably the only way to get some kind of proper indication.
You did say that the oil was changed so you would think the amount of oil in the engine would be perfect after that.
I hope everything stays fine but I would put big question marks with the dealer.
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