I think Halfords may have been caught by fake "E" marked replacement lamps. They will only fit "E" marked lamps but last year while queuing at the local store I overheard a discussion with a customer saying they would "fit these but not these" clearly referring two different models of sidelight lamps, both LED. I didn't have time to look further then, but when I looked last month in the same store they had no "E" marked replacement LED lamps on sale. Purely circumstantial but makes me wonder.


Robert G8RPI.

Another useful explanation
https://www.motoringassist.com/motoring-advice/news/fit-led-lighting-car-legally/


I would disagree on the bit about older cars. You CAN buy fully approved "E" marked LED replacement "Sealed Beam" lamps. This is because you are replacing the whole reflector and lens so they can be designed to work correctly with LEDS. Only problem is they are not cheap.
I don't really care if people fit illegal LED sidelights, delete their EGR, DPF or whatever, just that those suggesting or describing such action on the forum clearly note that they make the car illegal so others can make an in formed decision.


Robert G8RPI..

There are various exemptions in the road vehicle lighting regulations based on age.

One of these is that the requirement for bulbs to display approved markings only applies to vehicles first used after a certain date; the precise date depends on the vehicle type, but for most the cutoff will by now be at least 30 years ago, so not much help there for most of us.

I know a few classic car owners that exclusively use LED bulbs. One has a 1960 1200 Beetle and fitting these rather expensive 6 volt leds has made the car far safer. He did say they were 100% road legal in a car of that age.

Funny I have loads of old filament car bulbs some PAL ones from Czechoslovakia that must be 35 years or more old with no E marking and some 6 volt Sunshine car bulbs with no markings either.

g8rpi said:

Another useful explanation
https://www.motoringassist.com/motoring-advice/news/fit-led-lighting-car-legally/


I would disagree on the bit about older cars. You CAN buy fully approved "E" marked LED replacement "Sealed Beam" lamps. This is because you are replacing the whole reflector and lens so they can be designed to work correctly with LEDS. Only problem is they are not cheap.
I don't really care if people fit illegal LED sidelights, delete their EGR, DPF or whatever, just that those suggesting or describing such action on the forum clearly note that they make the car illegal so others can make an in formed decision.


Robert G8RPI..

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I agree with that point. Replacement lamp fittings are available for some cars, but as you said they are expensive but legal and unfortunately led bulbs don't fall into that category.

I think a certain level of blame should fall onto the bulb manufacturers, I brought a set of Philips led bulbs for my grandads Lada Niva (don't laugh too hard) full well knowing there are not Road legal. That car never goes on road and is specifically used for the farm. However the "off road use only" disclaimer was written in the smallest of small print on the back of the pack right at the bottom. Same for the OSRAM leds I fitted to the back. I've also seen anecdotes (true or not I don't know) on another forum that someone went into Halfords and picked up a set of led's and had them fitted to their car outside without question, they only realised they were illegal when they looked online for another set.

This is probably one of the most interesting and informative topics I've seen on the forum in a while, I also think it should be posted across all the whole forum as it applies to everyone especially some of the younger member with the older Punto's etc. who like to modify their cars.

babbo_umbro said:

Not being contentious - just interested to know - what is the advantage of LEDs?

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oyumurtaci said:

...less power drain essentially....

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This would be true, if it weren't for the the CanBus system.

Although throughout the history of the lightbulb we have always used 'watts' to tell bulbs apart, this is really a measure of how much electricity they use, not how bright they are. (Look at all 'new' household bulbs and they are marked in Lumens - a measure of light output). An LED needs much less power to deliver the same brightness, so yes will reduce current drain (and save on electricity bills in a house)

BUT, in a car with Canbus control (and via that, bulb failure detection too), you need to add in a resistor to make the current drain higher again. If you replace a 21watt bulb with a 3w LED, you need to add (about) 18w of resistor so the CanBus system is happy, so the power drain is the same... that resistor will get mighty hot too...

Herts Hillhopper said:

This would be true, if it weren't for the the CanBus system.

Although throughout the history of the lightbulb we have always used 'watts' to tell bulbs apart, this is really a measure of how much electricity they use, not how bright they are. (Look at all 'new' household bulbs and they are marked in Lumens - a measure of light output). An LED needs much less power to deliver the same brightness, so yes will reduce current drain (and save on electricity bills in a house)

BUT, in a car with Canbus control (and via that, bulb failure detection too), you need to add in a resistor to make the current drain higher again. If you replace a 21watt bulb with a 3w LED, you need to add (about) 18w of resistor so the CanBus system is happy, so the power drain is the same... that resistor will get mighty hot too...

Click to expand...

No.
The canbus does need loading but not with a resistor that equates to the wattage of the old bulb. The number plate bulbs for instance are 5watts each and wired in parallel, wiring a 27 ohm in parallel with two non canbus LEDs will stop the warning. The resistor will dissipate 5.3watts, a gold ceramic glued with heat dissipating epoxy to the tailgate door will run cool, thus only consuming slightly more than half power than previously. The other advantage is the bulb is virtually cold and the plastic it lives in won't degrade with heat. I've also found that the side lamps only need 50 ohms per side to load the canbus effectively. I've not done any further tests as that is as far as I'm going.
Not all cars require the loading to be the same, my previous car was happy with 120 ohms on any bulb no doubt as it was an older system.

murphyv310 said:

No.
The canbus does need loading but not with a resistor that equates to the wattage of the old bulb. The number plate bulbs for instance are 5watts each and wired in parallel, wiring a 27 ohm in parallel with two non canbus LEDs will stop the warning. The resistor will dissipate 5.3watts, a gold ceramic glued with heat dissipating epoxy to the tailgate door will run cool, thus only consuming slightly more than half power than previously. The other advantage is the bulb is virtually cold and the plastic it lives in won't degrade with heat. I've also found that the side lamps only need 50 ohms per side to load the canbus effectively. I've not done any further tests as that is as far as I'm going.
Not all cars require the loading to be the same, my previous car was happy with 120 ohms on any bulb no doubt as it was an older system.

Click to expand...

This is true but most resistor kits and "CAN compliant" LED lamps have higher loading so they will work with any car.


Robert G8RPI.

g8rpi said:

This is true but most resistor kits and "CAN compliant" LED lamps have higher loading so they will work with any car.


Robert G8RPI.

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I don't like the canbus error free bulbs, the SMD resistors are painfully underrated and the increased heat shortens their life. Far better to fit external resistors and non canbus bulbs.

I use a 100 ohm wirewound pot initially to find out what the system will accept and then use the next lowest preferred value for final installation.

murphyv310 said:

I don't like the canbus error free bulbs, the SMD resistors are painfully underrated and the increased heat shortens their life. Far better to fit external resistors and non canbus bulbs.

I use a 100 ohm wirewound pot initially to find out what the system will accept and then use the next lowest preferred value for final installation.

Click to expand...

I agree totally, but I doubt 1% of the people fitting LED replacements have the knowledge, equipment or inclination to work out what the minimum load they can get away with is. There is also the side issue that it disables the lamp failure warning, LEDs can fail.

Robert G8RPI.

True indeed.
Bulb warnings fail too, so the good old way of checking bulbs by walking round the car still holds water.

murphyv310 said:

True indeed.
Bulb warnings fail too, so the good old way of checking bulbs by walking round the car still holds water.

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There's also the fact that you can see the reflected DRLs pretty much most times you pull up behind a car at the traffic lights, so you'd probably notice them fairly soon.

That said, although I wish the OE DRLs were whiter on the dimmed setting, I think I'll leave well alone with mine.

Greetings, first of all I apologize for refloating this topic after a year.
I want to contribute my experience. I have a 2013 Panda bought in June 2018 and the first thing I did was to change the lamps of 21w daylight. The lamp holders are very weak and it took me a lot of work to remove the lamps, the tin of the terminals, it was fused to the contacts of the lamp holder and at the same time was a little warped by the heat. Very bad for Fiat not take care of this detail. The LEDs that I put are Canbus, since others, remain slightly lit for a few seconds after stopping the engine, although there is Fix a lot to detect it.
The rear registration w5w, also change them by canbus leds, but they gave me failure, so connect a resistance of 5w in one of the lamp holders, only one is sufficient and stick the resistor to the inside of the gate with two-component adhesive. I did not take pictures of this.
Thank you

Hi.
I used one 27ohm 5watt inside the tailgate and heat conductive epoxy to fix it to the metal. I used a gold type from RS components. I also noted some distortion of the plastic bulb holder due to heat from the filament bulb. Also had the same issue with the front DRL/Sidelight holder with the hot 21watt bulb.