AB100 said:

Even at my age you can still learn lessons and end up paying for mistakes.


I don't think the Twinair is for me. I can't live with the power/torque delivery.


Probably going weigh it in (at a huge loss) and get the same loaded Lounge but as a smooth, if slightly gutless 1.2


Funny old world eh?

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How many miles have you done and does the car have ?
They really do get better with use, my TA Cross got much better at about 4k.
I leave mine in Eco most of the time and only switch off on really steep hills etc if more power is needed as the power delivery is nicer around town.
As you say you'll lose money if you swap but probably the same as in a few weeks/months so put some miles on it and see if your feelings change?

pasotibbs said:

How many miles have you done and does the car have ?
They really do get better with use, my TA Cross got much better at about 4k.
I leave mine in Eco most of the time and only switch off on really steep hills etc if more power is needed as the power delivery is nicer around town.
As you say you'll lose money if you swap but probably the same as in a few weeks/months so put some miles on it and see if your feelings change?

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Its a really odd engine and you need to almost re learn how to drive it.
I like it, but my wife struggles.
We were even discussing moving to a City Cross this weekend purely for the 1.2 engine.

I think the real difference is that she drives in traffic and I drive it more on the open road.
It seems that its in traffic that most people struggle - its really noisy if you don't start off with a light throttle foot and becomes tiresome really quickly.
I always prefer to use throttle control to stop what seems to be a valve opening to keep the noise down as I find ECO mode strangles the car.
Normal throttle response is too sensitive so I think it really needs a middle setting.

Agree with the mileage comment too, although ours seemed to get better at around 8k miles.

I also think that emissions controls have a part in this. I have a 500X and the "in traffic" throttle response is abysmal. It really jerks when you come off/go on the throttle at slow speed.
You may find the 1.2 is as much a challenge as the TA in this respect.
Fiat don't seem to be too bothered with setting up their fuelling for anything less that full throttle.
Guess that's how they drive them in Italy.

Thanks for the comments. You're probably right that I'd get used to it - but I don't want to. It really isn't for me at all.


I like the smooth 1.2 4 cylinder range even if the torque is lacking.


I'm just about to let it go now at £1800 loss. That's life eh.

AB100 said:

Thanks for the comments. You're probably right that I'd get used to it - but I don't want to. It really isn't for me at all.


I like the smooth 1.2 4 cylinder range even if the torque is lacking.


I'm just about to let it go now at £1800 loss. That's life eh.

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I remember our late moderator Tony (grimwau) doing the exact same thing; he just couldn't get on with the TA engine. In his case, though, he traded it for an A500 (and then traded that not that long afterwards for a 595) .

I'd say it's better to cut your losses now. The alternative is to spend the next few years driving something you can't bond with, and that's going to be no fun at all.

Sorry you've lost £1800 though.

jrkitching said:

I remember our late moderator Tony (grimwau) doing the exact same thing; he just couldn't get on with the TA engine. In his case, though, he traded it for an A500 (and then traded that not that long afterwards for a 595) .

I'd say it's better to cut your losses now. The alternative is to spend the next few years driving something you can't bond with, and that's going to be no fun at all.

Sorry you've lost £1800 though.

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Yeah, these things happen. My own fault. Imagine if I'd shelled out for a £20000 Audi..........

AB100 said:

Thanks. In 10 years it should be awesome then.


It also has the Citybrake thing it seems........


One thing it doesn't have is a freaking spare wheel kit. What size are the spares for these? 135/80-14?

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What I can say is a 175 15 wheel and tyre will not go in the wheel-well so it does have to be a space saver.

pasotibbs said:

How many miles have you done and does the car have ?
They really do get better with use, my TA Cross got much better at about 4k.
I leave mine in Eco most of the time and only switch off on really steep hills etc if more power is needed as the power delivery is nicer around town.
As you say you'll lose money if you swap but probably the same as in a few weeks/months so put some miles on it and see if your feelings change?

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Interesting, as my TA 4x4 also seems to have stepped up at about 4000 miles and is much better. I think this is a software thing. Running in mode?? The change is quite dramatic and the car is now OK. Not a patch on the 100HP but OK now I have accepted its different. it certainly runs along at 70mph (62 really very easily and at 78mph (70 really) equally easily. My advice is not to change as its far far to much expense and your loss will be someone elses gain. - the dealer's!

AB100 said:

Thanks. Looks the part. Only wanted the winter pack really but hey.


I listed this on the FIAT website - just shy of £14000. Paying £9500 seemed reasonable.

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Very good price. I paid 11K in Jan for my 4x4 its metallic but otherwise bog standard. I like the colour and the tints add something of a 100HP look too.

petercresswell said:

Very good price. I paid 11K in Jan for my 4x4 its metallic but otherwise bog standard. I like the colour and the tints add something of a 100HP look too.

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It went on Monday. Definitely my shortest car tenure. I may have become used to the delivery eventually but it just isn't for me.


The 1.2 version should be with me today. I'll errr...........be test driving that one first, though experience in Spanish ones suggest it should be fine.


Like you, I'll miss the 100Hp but not when it comes to taxing and parking it.

AB100 said:

Like you, I'll miss the 100Hp but not when it comes to taxing and parking it.

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Not sure I understand the reference to parking .

jrkitching said:

Not sure I understand the reference to parking .

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Aaahh well, had you driven/owned a 1.4 Panda/500 you would know about the extra 1 metre of turning circle gifted by the 6-speed box.


Much worse when you have a 1.2 and a 1.4 and then 'forget'.

AB100 said:

It went on Monday. Definitely my shortest car tenure. I may have become used to the delivery eventually but it just isn't for me.


The 1.2 version should be with me today. I'll errr...........be test driving that one first, though experience in Spanish ones suggest it should be fine.


Like you, I'll miss the 100Hp but not when it comes to taxing and parking it.

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Sorry to hear you didn't get on with the TwinAir - personally I love the engine, for me the best option, by far. BUT - I'm a bit of a petrolhead, into bikes and unusual engineering - my appreciation of the diminutive TwinAir is partly out of what it achieves from so little, be that power from cc or miles from gallons (yes, I know some leadfoots struggle on mpg, but it can be done). For me, it's part of the experience, but I can see that motorcycle/2CV-alike thrum could annoy someone just seeking quiet, smooth, competent and "mpg-without-trying" motoring. Music to one is noise to another.

Hope you get on with your new 1.2! Rgds, N

AB100 said:

Aaahh well, had you driven/owned a 1.4 Panda/500 you would know about the extra 1 metre of turning circle gifted by the 6-speed box.


Much worse when you have a 1.2 and a 1.4 and then 'forget'.

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Was this down to the 6-speed 'box, or the wider tyres that accompany the bigger engine reducing lock?

NitramA said:

I always prefer to use throttle control to stop what seems to be a valve opening to keep the noise down as I find ECO mode strangles the car.
Normal throttle response is too sensitive so I think it really needs a middle setting.

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I tend to agree! What's really needed is an ECO setting that still delivers full power/torque at fully open throttle, but keeps the reduced amounts available at the smallest settings. Then you'd have a car that would be quieter and smoother, but without having to press a button to access the greater 'pull' for dual carriageways overtaking, rapid take offs out of junctions and such.

Panda 4x4 TA Antarctica said:

I'm a bit of a petrolhead, into bikes and unusual engineering - my appreciation of the diminutive TwinAir is partly out of what it achieves from so little, be that power from cc or miles from gallons (yes, I know some leadfoots struggle on mpg, but it can be done). For me, it's part of the experience, but I can see that motorcycle/2CV-alike thrum could annoy someone just seeking quiet, smooth, competent and "mpg-without-trying" motoring. Music to one is noise to another.

Hope you get on with your new 1.2! Rgds, N

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I was seduced by the notion of the Twinair. The reality wasn't for me. The noise/vibration and delivery just didn't suit - I'm lazy and like to skip gears, hang on to them for too long and so forth. The Twin-air, like a modern diesel doesn't suit that. The 1.4 was wonderful in delivery but flawed in other ways. For me the 1.2 is the best compromise.


Economy? Both cars had 6 miles on the clock and were delivered to me from 70 miles away.


The Twinair had a straight/steady run on a sunny day and arrived with 35.9mpg average on the dash.


The 1.2 arrived yesterday on a rainy/choked M1 with an hour tagged on for the slow journey. You guessed it, 42.5mpg average.


p.s. I had to get the manual out AGAIN when pairing the phone......

That is indeed the thing. I'd say on average I do 80% town driving. Kilmarnock is heavily laden with traffic lights, speed bumps, road works and roads with no maintenance. Progress is slow, 4th & 5th gear is a luxury and even here I'm still returning what I feel is a brilliant 46 average mpg. Having had a drive in a TA I'd not be able to live with it on my type of journeys, although the 1.2 in Euro 6 has its issues it's a far more pleasant drive.

murphyv310 said:

although the 1.2 in Euro 6 has its issues it's a far more pleasant drive.

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Have you driven one in Euro4 form (the last of the non-VVT engines)? That one's an absolute peach of an engine; it'll pull away cleanly in 5th from 25mph and reliably puts 70+ mpg on the trip on a decent run.

The later Euro5/6 VVT engines are noticeably more rattly and run like a bag of bolts in comparison.

jrkitching said:

Have you driven one in Euro4 form (the last of the non-VVT engines)? That one's an absolute peach of an engine; it'll pull away cleanly in 5th from 25mph and reliably puts 70+ mpg on the trip on a decent run.

The later Euro5/6 VVT engines are noticeably more rattly and run like a bag of bolts in comparison.

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In fact I haven't but I did have a 2002 Doblo 1242cc mpv. Considering what I used to lug around it was really good and also quiet, when I sold it there was nearly 130,000 on the clock.
What then is rattly on the VVT versions?

murphyv310 said:

What then is rattly on the VVT versions?

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I've noticed more top end noise from the valve gear. Nothing serious, just not quite as quiet as the older engine.

David Bliss had both Eu4 & Eu6 engines on a rolling road a few years ago; here are the results.

Interesting plot.
Torque is down on the later engine but the Euro 6 revs out more with higher BHP, surely that is wrong as both torque and BHP have a mathematical relationship.

Its actually near enough spot on with the calcs, I previously tried it but used maximum torque not torque at 6300 rpm on the euro 6 unit.
Still wonder what the curves would be like on a remap then?