Technical Fiat Panda 4x4 system, "How does it work" ?

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Technical Fiat Panda 4x4 system, "How does it work" ?

Forgive me- which models have the 4x4 system fitted?

Every generation of the Panda has had a 4x4 version, and the latest models are the regular Panda 4x4 along with the Panda Cross. In the previous generation, they were called the Panda Climbing, Panda Trekking, and Panda Cross (again), and in the first generation it was called the Panda 4x4 and Panda Sisley.
 
The first Panda (type 141) 4x4 is from 1983, just a couple of years after the Pandas launch in 1980 and was just called the "Panda 4x4".

This model Panda was redesigned a few years later and the special addition "Sisley 4x4" was added along side the "Panda 4x4".

The Sisley became popular, so Fiat added it as a proper model a year or so later.
(Sisley are a clothing company, and this isn't the only Panda model to wear a clothing company's label, Fiat launched the K-Way special edition a few years ago, though not in the UK and on a FWD Panda)

A couple of years after this, around 1991, the Panda got a refresh again (Cats and EFI became available) and the 4x4 became the "Trekking 4x4".

Although Fiat dropped the Panda from the UK price list a few years after, they pretty much carried on in Italy like this until 2003.

The next gen Panda (169) came along in 2003 and was soon available with 4x4 as the "Climbing" with the FIRE 1.2 petrol engine in the UK.

A few years later (2008/9) came the Panda "Cross" 4x4 with the Multijet diesel engine, actual date depends on market, but I believe they launched the "Climbing" with diesel power in Italy around the same time or just before.

The latest gen Panda (312/319) came in 2011 and the 4x4 model came a year later.
It's just called the "4x4" with both Twinair petrol and Multijet diesel available.

Fiat reused the "Trekking" name again around this time, they used it on a Panda with a jacked up 4x4 stance and body cladding, but with just front wheel drive. (later quietly dropped for some reason?)

2013 saw the "Antarctica" special edition, launched to mark 30 years of 4x4 Pandas.
(worth noting for those not familiar with Italian special editions/marketing. If 200 are launched, this doesn't mean only 200 were built, but that 200 were built for every market!)
I think Austria, home of Steyr got their own 4x4 special at this time though.

Then in 2014 came the (new) Panda "Cross" model with 4x4, again with Twinair and Multijet diesels, but offered with slightly more power.
 
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Another good answer!

In case it needs any extra (maybe it doesn't?), for both the earlier (169 model) 4x4 and the current (319) model, each had a range had a car 'just' called the 4x4, and one called the Cross.
In both these cases, the 4x4 and Cross are more or less identical in terms of off road ability, but the Cross models get more bodywork 'bolt ons' - fancier bumpers etc. And the Cross gets an extra 'gadget' to add to offroadiness at the limit: in 2009 the Cross had ELD (electronically locking diffs) - this is standard on the newer 4x4 model, and in 2013 the Cross adds Hill Decent Control to help at the limit on slippery downhill runs. On the current range, the Cross (which costs about £1500 more than the 4x4) gets 5bhp more power, full climate control and a unique, copper-coloured dash, as well as the Hill Decent Control. Otherwise, its the same as the 4x4 model...
 
The first Panda (type 141) 4x4 is from 1983, just a couple of years after the Pandas launch in 1980 and was just called the "Panda 4x4".

This model Panda was redesigned a few years later and the special addition "Sisley 4x4" was added along side the "Panda 4x4".

The Sisley became popular, so Fiat added it as a proper model a year or so later.
(Sisley are a clothing company, and this isn't the only Panda model to wear a clothing company's label, Fiat launched the K-Way special edition a few years ago, though not in the UK and on a FWD Panda)

A couple of years after this, around 1991, the Panda got a refresh again (Cats and EFI became available) and the 4x4 became the "Trekking 4x4".

Although Fiat dropped the Panda from the UK price list a few years after, they pretty much carried on in Italy like this until 2003.

The next gen Panda (169) came along in 2003 and was soon available with 4x4 as the "Climbing" with the FIRE 1.2 petrol engine in the UK.

A few years later (2008/9) came the Panda "Cross" 4x4 with the Multijet diesel engine, actual date depends on market, but I believe they launched the "Climbing" with diesel power in Italy around the same time or just before.

The latest gen Panda (312/319) came in 2011 and the 4x4 model came a year later.
It's just called the "4x4" with both Twinair petrol and Multijet diesel available.

Fiat reused the "Trekking" name again around this time, they used it on a Panda with a jacked up 4x4 stance and body cladding, but with just front wheel drive. (later quietly dropped for some reason?)

2013 saw the "Antarctica" special edition, launched to mark 30 years of 4x4 Pandas.
(worth noting for those not familiar with Italian special editions/marketing. If 200 are launched, this doesn't mean only 200 were built, but that 200 were built for every market!)
I think Austria, home of Steyr got their own 4x4 special at this time though.

Then in 2014 came the (new) Panda "Cross" model with 4x4, again with Twinair and Multijet diesels, but offered with slightly more power.



What was the Fiat Panda 169 Monster?!? Can't seem to find much about it?!?
 
It was another special edition, this time based on the 169 Cross, I think it broke cover in 2005.

Diesel powered, all black bodywork with gold calipers, mess grills and special alloy wheels.
Think it even had black leather seats.
https://www.motor1.com/photos/437233/fiat-panda-monster-limited-edition/

The plan was to make 620 (don't know if they did).
When you add the number 620, the colour black and gold calipers all together, you get something else Italian, the Ducati Monster 620 Dark, which the Panda Monster celebrated.
http://www.bikez.com/pictures/large...ster 620 i.e. dark_Image credits - Ducati.jpg
 
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Thanks for all for the feedback.. I'm currently trying to source the Mk1 sisely- to chop for bits on a project.

I believe the 4x4 system is in contact drive throughout the gears as apposed to the haldex style system kicking in only when the front looses traction?

Please advise.

Many thanks, Vince.
 
Sisley's and early Mk1/2 Pandas were part time 4x4's.
They operated like a normal front wheel drive unless the rear drive was engaged manually, so no haldex or similar type auto coupling.

I seem to think that a power take off was connected between the gearbox and front diff and that was manually operated by a lever between the seats.
When engaged it then sent power rearwards (as well as the normal drive to the fronts).
I seem to think this was speed limited to around 60kph, though for the life of me, I can't think how they achieved this, perhaps it deselected the PTO above this speed, just jumped out of drive??

Again, the drivetrain was made and supplied by Steyr, back then they were Steyr Puch.
 
Sisley's and early Mk1/2 Pandas were part time 4x4's.
They operated like a normal front wheel drive unless the rear drive was engaged manually, so no haldex or similar type auto coupling.

I seem to think that a power take off was connected between the gearbox and front diff and that was manually operated by a lever between the seats.
When engaged it then sent power rearwards (as well as the normal drive to the fronts).
I seem to think this was speed limited to around 60kph, though for the life of me, I can't think how they achieved this, perhaps it deselected the PTO above this speed, just jumped out of drive??

Again, the drivetrain was made and supplied by Steyr, back then they were Steyr Puch.

Hence the headline in one motoring magazine, "No need to Steyr, all you have to do is Puch."

Yes, the drive to the rear wheels was via a T-shaped lever between the seats. All very primitive (and requiring strong biceps to engage, at least in ours!). I don't recall there being a speed limiter as such - just a dire warning in the handbook not to drive it in 4x4 mode above the recommended speed, and a fearful amount of whining from the oily bits if you pushed it too hard. There was no differential, so the tyre scrub when manoeuvring was something to behold (I once tested it on my late father-in-law's gravel drive, and never heard the end of it. He was raking that gravel for days afterwards.). On the plus side, that little beast would go through anything.
 
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Exactly as described above - and of course pretty much the most reliable 2WD-to-4WD switching technology available ;)

The main reason those early cars were so good in snow and clag was down to light weight - around 700Kg only - and therefore 1/3 tonne lighter than our 312/319 models. And they get lighter still, the longer you keep them unfortunately...... :eek:
 
The main reason those early cars were so good in snow and clag was down to light weight - around 700Kg only - and therefore 1/3 tonne lighter than our 312/319 models. And they get lighter still, the longer you keep them unfortunately...... :eek:

Lol! Ours must have lost several kilos of weight from the bottom of the doors!
 
Thanks for the info once more...

I was hoping that having a 4wd setup would boast better acceleration grip but it seems this is not the case?

Does anyone know what would happen if you put a higher power engine, say 150 odd bhp through the 4wd system to launch then manually pulled it out of 4wd to continue though the gears?

Would the whole thing collapse or would it stand up to that kind of beating?

Has anyone ever done this?

Vince.
 
It's been suggested on here before you could modify a TA 85 Panda with a 105 turbo from a 500 and a rechip. Despite the modest power in the 4x4, it has got traction control. Will kick in if you put the power down with the clutch partly up. Whether the 2wd has it too. The only way is to buy a secondhand one, modify it and find out. Compared to a new 500 105 which I would rather have 2 new Panda 1.2 Easys and some change, but that's me.
 
Yes, you only need to change, the cylinder head turbo bolt's, the 85 turbo for the 105 turbo and the turbo heat shield, everything else (connections) are plug & play. :D

The only thing that is also different is the "intercooler" itself on the 105 hp version, but what is different about it, i don't know.

You need a adjusted map to make the 105 hp turbo work compare to the 85 hp map.

With a custom remap you can get the the turbo to work to his full potential and end up with ± 124 hp. :D
 
Yes, you only need to change, the cylinder head turbo bolt's, the 85 turbo for the 105 turbo and the turbo heat shield, everything else (connections) are plug & play. :D



The only thing that is also different is the "intercooler" itself on the 105 hp version, but what is different about it, i don't know.



You need a adjusted map to make the 105 hp turbo work compare to the 85 hp map.



With a custom remap you can get the the turbo to work to his full potential and end up with ± 124 hp. :D


Has anyone done that put the 105 bhp twin air engine in a Panda 4x4?!? Guess the intercooler will be bigger!!
 
Thanks for the info once more...

I was hoping that having a 4wd setup would boast better acceleration grip but it seems this is not the case?

Does anyone know what would happen if you put a higher power engine, say 150 odd bhp through the 4wd system to launch then manually pulled it out of 4wd to continue though the gears?

Would the whole thing collapse or would it stand up to that kind of beating?

Has anyone ever done this?

Vince.
You're probably asking in the wrong forum, the classic Panda forum might return better information.

Though I think the old Panda's selectable 4x4 system wouldn't take much more than it already has.
If you could, any gains would be lost when you tried to deselect the rear axle, which would probably be impossible without slowing down with that sort of load through it. (if it didn't break)

The latest Panda 4x4's with the TA engine has a really low first gear (same as the 169 Climbing), it's really only 1/2 a gear and the change from 1st to 2nd can't be rushed, more power isn't really going to really improve standing starts, in 85hp trim it'll hit the rev limiter before you can even think about changing gear as it is.
(in a standing start, it's the quickest thing on the road over 12 feet!)

I always thought it might be better to start with the Panda Multijet if you fancied boosting power as they produce a lot more torque than the petrol versions.

Turbo diesels usually give bigger gains with a remap and with perhaps a bigger intercooler it wouldn't be too hard to end up with a useful tool if the clutch can stand it!

Probably the best advise would be to save your time, effort and money and buy something else.
I always fancied modding a 225 Audi TT Quattro.
They're cheap enough these days and you don't need too much work on the engine side to hit 250+hp.
Spending the money on sorting the handling would be a must though!
 
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You're probably asking in the wrong forum, the classic Panda forum might return better information.

Though I think the old Panda's selectable 4x4 system wouldn't take much more than it already has.
If you could, any gains would be lost when you tried to deselect the rear axle, which would probably be impossible without slowing down with that sort of load through it. (if it didn't break)

The latest Panda 4x4's with the TA engine has a really low first gear (same as the 169 Climbing), it's really only 1/2 a gear and the change from 1st to 2nd can't be rushed, more power isn't really going to really improve standing starts, in 85hp trim it'll hit the rev limiter before you can even think about changing gear as it is.
(in a standing start, it's the quickest thing on the road over 12 feet!)

I always thought it might be better to start with the Panda Multijet if you fancied boosting power as they produce a lot more torque than the petrol versions.

Turbo diesels usually give bigger gains with a remap and with perhaps a bigger intercooler it wouldn't be too hard to end up with a useful tool if the clutch can stand it!

Probably the best advise would be to save your time, effort and money and buy something else.
I always fancied modding a 225 Audi TT Quattro.
They're cheap enough these days and you don't need too much work on the engine side to hit 250+hp.
Spending the money on sorting the handling would be a must though!

Thank you for your time, it's good to get multiple opinions as someone else has mentioned the 4WD system can take a heavy beating- I guess they were merely pulling my leg.

Funny you should mention the TT- I've been playing with the Mk1 3.2 DSG for a good few years now ;) There'S nothing wrong with how a TT handles, they get far too much stick from bad drivers- the car handles like a dream if you know how to drive it. Still, with any power upgrades, brakes & suspension are a 100% must for where to start.

All the best, Vince.
 
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Disregarding the Audi for a moment (that's a whole different bag of beans)...

Prometeo Meccanica manufacture a heavy duty transfer case and differential sets for both the first and second generation Panda. Coupled with the flywheel and clutch (which they also produce, or which pretty much any flywheel-clutch combo built for modifying the 500 with the same gearbox will also fit), it's entirely possible to get a monster of a little car. Similarly, for example, the world drag record holding Subaru Justy (which has a similarly simple 4x4 system) went through several iterations before it became the beast it is today, but the drivetrain only really started having trouble at around the 250hp mark (when they started breaking axles every 3 races). So realistically, if you wanted a "reliable" and powerful Panda 1st or 2nd gen, you'd need the diffs and cases from Prometeo and probably have to modify or build stronger axles and CV joints.

As for the 4x4 system contributing to acceleration, I can only personally attest to the Panda 312 as that's what I have, but left in "Normal" mode the traction control kicks in quite soon. With the ELD system engaged and the central differential primed, on a wet road, dropping the clutch at around 2000rpm (yes yes, I'm ruining my clutch I know) kicks the little thing violently forward enough that you could easily keep up or out-accelerate a vehicle with rear or front wheel drive with 150-170hp up to about 35mph. Once the traction traction limitations are equalled out (so second gear onward basically) they'll fly by. So in short, it's entirely plausible to build a Super Panda from any generation, but it would depend greatly on how much time and money you'd want to invest on a platform with the aforementioned limitations. If you want a cheap build for a few laughs, and don't mind replacing the clutch and axles every now and then, just throw in as much power in the engine bay as you think it can handle, have fun until something breaks, then upgrade whatever breaks along the way (clutch, diff etc). If you want to have fun that's not only in a straight line, the same folks at Prometeo also make front and rear limited slip and fully locking differentials for gen 1 and 2 Pandas, though they can get pricey.
 
...but left in "Normal" mode the traction control kicks in quite soon. With the ELD system engaged and the central differential primed, on a wet road, dropping the clutch at around 2000rpm (yes yes, I'm ruining my clutch I know) kicks the little thing violently forward ....
Pressing ELD (or selecting 'offroad' in the Cross) also has an effect on the traction control... the instruction book (now that I've found it :) says:

The activation of the ELD system involves the following functions being switched on:

  • permanent four-wheel drive, so that the vehicle is more responsive
  • inhibition of the ASR function [traction control], in order to fully exploit the engine torque;
  • differential lock effect on the front and rear axles, via the braking system, to improve drive on uneven surfaces.
It also goes on to explain that if the ELD actually operates, the yellow ELD light will flash on the dash.
 
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