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Old 01-05-2017   #16
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Re: Fiat Panda 4x4 system, "How does it work" ?

Quote Originally Posted by oyumurtaci View Post
... the ELD system doesn't work above 30mph/50kph....
A good write up - but note the ELD is not available over 30km/hr (or 18mph)... not 30mph. But rarely would you being trying to cross 'difficult' off road terrain at anything over 18mph anyway -- you should always be going slowly enough to be able to reverse back if you get stuck. Go too fast and you will overshoot an obstacle (eg fall too far into a deep rut) and then if you try and reverse, all the wheels are spinning in fresh air ... no amount of ELD will help you if the tyres aren't in contact with the ground.
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Last edited by Herts Hillhopper; 01-05-2017 at 22:05.
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Old 02-05-2017   #17
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Re: Fiat Panda 4x4 system, "How does it work" ?

Quote Originally Posted by Herts Hillhopper View Post
Correct: the last of the 'old' model 4x4 and all of the previous model Cross saw the viscous coupling replaced by electromechanical engagement of the 4x4 system (from about 2010 onwards I think)
Yeah, the system before this electro one was a GKN viscous coupling based on a design by Ferguson in the 70's, GKN own the rights for that system now.

According to Magna Steyr, they started supplying the electro coupling for the Panda in 2008, but I guess it depends on what market got what and when.

We certainly didn't get the plain diesel Climbing 169 model over here, only the Cross version a little later.

I've only ever seen these diesel Climbings in Italy and they do seem to be from around 2008 onwards.
I reckon that plain diesel Climbing got the electro version first, then the elder Cross, then the latests model 4x4's and Cross's.
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Old 02-05-2017   #18
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Re: Fiat Panda 4x4 system, "How does it work" ?

Quote Originally Posted by Herts Hillhopper View Post
A good write up - but note the ELD is not available over 30km/hr (or 18mph)... not 30mph. But rarely would you being trying to cross 'difficult' off road terrain at anything over 18mph anyway -- you should always be going slowly enough to be able to reverse back if you get stuck. Go too fast and you will overshoot an obstacle (eg fall too far into a deep rut) and then if you try and reverse, all the wheels are spinning in fresh air ... no amount of ELD will help you if the tyres aren't in contact with the ground.
From what I can tell, it's always been 50kph, even for the old Cross:

https://www.manualslib.com/manual/80...x4.html?page=4
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Old 02-05-2017   #19
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Re: Fiat Panda 4x4 system, "How does it work" ?

Apologies - I stand corrected... My manual also shows that ELD operates up to 30mph/50km/hr, so not sure where I got 18mph from
Pete
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Old 02-05-2017   #20
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Re: Fiat Panda 4x4 system, "How does it work" ?

Forgive me- which models have the 4x4 system fitted?
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Old 02-05-2017   #21
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Re: Fiat Panda 4x4 system, "How does it work" ?

Quote Originally Posted by VincePrototypeFirefly View Post
Forgive me- which models have the 4x4 system fitted?
Every generation of the Panda has had a 4x4 version, and the latest models are the regular Panda 4x4 along with the Panda Cross. In the previous generation, they were called the Panda Climbing, Panda Trekking, and Panda Cross (again), and in the first generation it was called the Panda 4x4 and Panda Sisley.
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Old 02-05-2017   #22
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Re: Fiat Panda 4x4 system, "How does it work" ?

The first Panda (type 141) 4x4 is from 1983, just a couple of years after the Pandas launch in 1980 and was just called the "Panda 4x4".

This model Panda was redesigned a few years later and the special addition "Sisley 4x4" was added along side the "Panda 4x4".

The Sisley became popular, so Fiat added it as a proper model a year or so later.
(Sisley are a clothing company, and this isn't the only Panda model to wear a clothing company's label, Fiat launched the K-Way special edition a few years ago, though not in the UK and on a FWD Panda)

A couple of years after this, around 1991, the Panda got a refresh again (Cats and EFI became available) and the 4x4 became the "Trekking 4x4".

Although Fiat dropped the Panda from the UK price list a few years after, they pretty much carried on in Italy like this until 2003.

The next gen Panda (169) came along in 2003 and was soon available with 4x4 as the "Climbing" with the FIRE 1.2 petrol engine in the UK.

A few years later (2008/9) came the Panda "Cross" 4x4 with the Multijet diesel engine, actual date depends on market, but I believe they launched the "Climbing" with diesel power in Italy around the same time or just before.

The latest gen Panda (312/319) came in 2011 and the 4x4 model came a year later.
It's just called the "4x4" with both Twinair petrol and Multijet diesel available.

Fiat reused the "Trekking" name again around this time, they used it on a Panda with a jacked up 4x4 stance and body cladding, but with just front wheel drive. (later quietly dropped for some reason?)

2013 saw the "Antarctica" special edition, launched to mark 30 years of 4x4 Pandas.
(worth noting for those not familiar with Italian special editions/marketing. If 200 are launched, this doesn't mean only 200 were built, but that 200 were built for every market!)
I think Austria, home of Steyr got their own 4x4 special at this time though.

Then in 2014 came the (new) Panda "Cross" model with 4x4, again with Twinair and Multijet diesels, but offered with slightly more power.
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Last edited by Goudrons; 02-05-2017 at 13:00.
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Old 02-05-2017   #23
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Re: Fiat Panda 4x4 system, "How does it work" ?

Another good answer!

In case it needs any extra (maybe it doesn't?), for both the earlier (169 model) 4x4 and the current (319) model, each had a range had a car 'just' called the 4x4, and one called the Cross.
In both these cases, the 4x4 and Cross are more or less identical in terms of off road ability, but the Cross models get more bodywork 'bolt ons' - fancier bumpers etc. And the Cross gets an extra 'gadget' to add to offroadiness at the limit: in 2009 the Cross had ELD (electronically locking diffs) - this is standard on the newer 4x4 model, and in 2013 the Cross adds Hill Decent Control to help at the limit on slippery downhill runs. On the current range, the Cross (which costs about 1500 more than the 4x4) gets 5bhp more power, full climate control and a unique, copper-coloured dash, as well as the Hill Decent Control. Otherwise, its the same as the 4x4 model...
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Old 02-05-2017   #24
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Re: Fiat Panda 4x4 system, "How does it work" ?

You forgot to add the all-important fact that the Cross comes in ... yellow!

Yellows! Yellows!
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Old 05-05-2017   #25
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Re: Fiat Panda 4x4 system, "How does it work" ?

Quote Originally Posted by Goudrons View Post
The first Panda (type 141) 4x4 is from 1983, just a couple of years after the Pandas launch in 1980 and was just called the "Panda 4x4".

This model Panda was redesigned a few years later and the special addition "Sisley 4x4" was added along side the "Panda 4x4".

The Sisley became popular, so Fiat added it as a proper model a year or so later.
(Sisley are a clothing company, and this isn't the only Panda model to wear a clothing company's label, Fiat launched the K-Way special edition a few years ago, though not in the UK and on a FWD Panda)

A couple of years after this, around 1991, the Panda got a refresh again (Cats and EFI became available) and the 4x4 became the "Trekking 4x4".

Although Fiat dropped the Panda from the UK price list a few years after, they pretty much carried on in Italy like this until 2003.

The next gen Panda (169) came along in 2003 and was soon available with 4x4 as the "Climbing" with the FIRE 1.2 petrol engine in the UK.

A few years later (2008/9) came the Panda "Cross" 4x4 with the Multijet diesel engine, actual date depends on market, but I believe they launched the "Climbing" with diesel power in Italy around the same time or just before.

The latest gen Panda (312/319) came in 2011 and the 4x4 model came a year later.
It's just called the "4x4" with both Twinair petrol and Multijet diesel available.

Fiat reused the "Trekking" name again around this time, they used it on a Panda with a jacked up 4x4 stance and body cladding, but with just front wheel drive. (later quietly dropped for some reason?)

2013 saw the "Antarctica" special edition, launched to mark 30 years of 4x4 Pandas.
(worth noting for those not familiar with Italian special editions/marketing. If 200 are launched, this doesn't mean only 200 were built, but that 200 were built for every market!)
I think Austria, home of Steyr got their own 4x4 special at this time though.

Then in 2014 came the (new) Panda "Cross" model with 4x4, again with Twinair and Multijet diesels, but offered with slightly more power.


What was the Fiat Panda 169 Monster?!? Can't seem to find much about it?!?
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Old 05-05-2017   #26
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Re: Fiat Panda 4x4 system, "How does it work" ?

It was another special edition, this time based on the 169 Cross, I think it broke cover in 2005.

Diesel powered, all black bodywork with gold calipers, mess grills and special alloy wheels.
Think it even had black leather seats.
https://www.motor1.com/photos/437233...mited-edition/

The plan was to make 620 (don't know if they did).
When you add the number 620, the colour black and gold calipers all together, you get something else Italian, the Ducati Monster 620 Dark, which the Panda Monster celebrated.
http://www.bikez.com/pictures/large....-%20Ducati.jpg
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Last edited by Goudrons; 05-05-2017 at 23:47.
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Old 10-05-2017   #27
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Re: Fiat Panda 4x4 system, "How does it work" ?

Thanks for all for the feedback.. I'm currently trying to source the Mk1 sisely- to chop for bits on a project.

I believe the 4x4 system is in contact drive throughout the gears as apposed to the haldex style system kicking in only when the front looses traction?

Please advise.

Many thanks, Vince.
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Old 10-05-2017   #28
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Re: Fiat Panda 4x4 system, "How does it work" ?

Sisley's and early Mk1/2 Pandas were part time 4x4's.
They operated like a normal front wheel drive unless the rear drive was engaged manually, so no haldex or similar type auto coupling.

I seem to think that a power take off was connected between the gearbox and front diff and that was manually operated by a lever between the seats.
When engaged it then sent power rearwards (as well as the normal drive to the fronts).
I seem to think this was speed limited to around 60kph, though for the life of me, I can't think how they achieved this, perhaps it deselected the PTO above this speed, just jumped out of drive??

Again, the drivetrain was made and supplied by Steyr, back then they were Steyr Puch.
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Old 11-05-2017   #29
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Re: Fiat Panda 4x4 system, "How does it work" ?

Quote Originally Posted by Goudrons View Post
Sisley's and early Mk1/2 Pandas were part time 4x4's.
They operated like a normal front wheel drive unless the rear drive was engaged manually, so no haldex or similar type auto coupling.

I seem to think that a power take off was connected between the gearbox and front diff and that was manually operated by a lever between the seats.
When engaged it then sent power rearwards (as well as the normal drive to the fronts).
I seem to think this was speed limited to around 60kph, though for the life of me, I can't think how they achieved this, perhaps it deselected the PTO above this speed, just jumped out of drive??

Again, the drivetrain was made and supplied by Steyr, back then they were Steyr Puch.
Hence the headline in one motoring magazine, "No need to Steyr, all you have to do is Puch."

Yes, the drive to the rear wheels was via a T-shaped lever between the seats. All very primitive (and requiring strong biceps to engage, at least in ours!). I don't recall there being a speed limiter as such - just a dire warning in the handbook not to drive it in 4x4 mode above the recommended speed, and a fearful amount of whining from the oily bits if you pushed it too hard. There was no differential, so the tyre scrub when manoeuvring was something to behold (I once tested it on my late father-in-law's gravel drive, and never heard the end of it. He was raking that gravel for days afterwards.). On the plus side, that little beast would go through anything.
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Last edited by gar074; 11-05-2017 at 00:09.
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Old 11-05-2017   #30
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Re: Fiat Panda 4x4 system, "How does it work" ?

Exactly as described above - and of course pretty much the most reliable 2WD-to-4WD switching technology available

The main reason those early cars were so good in snow and clag was down to light weight - around 700Kg only - and therefore 1/3 tonne lighter than our 312/319 models. And they get lighter still, the longer you keep them unfortunately......
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