Register Login
The UK's No.1 Chrysler Owners Forum
Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 13-09-2016   #16
Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Dorset
Posts: 8,439
Thanks: 886
Trader Rating: 0
United Kingdom 
Re: Euro 6 engine software update letter?

This story from the unfolding VW emissions scandal makes interesting reading. Interesting, that is, if you're not the owner of a Euro6 diesel car. If you are, then you might want to substitute 'scary' for 'interesting'.

Note particularly that the VW engineer concerned admitted that continued running in 'test mode' (the mode that meets emissions standards) was having an adverse effect on reliability, leading to warranty claims... so VW modified the software to reduce the amount of time the car spent running in an emissions-compliant manner.
Likes SB1500 liked this post
__________________


"Just 'cos you're not paranoid, doesn't mean they're not out to get you"


Last edited by jrkitching; 13-09-2016 at 21:09.
jrkitching is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 14-09-2016   #17
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 14,590
Thanks: 706
Trader Rating: 0
United Kingdom 
Re: Euro 6 engine software update letter?

In the 1990s Ford were running a fleet of 2 stroke engines that hammered the emissions rules and were planned for the new Ka model. It was direct injected with stratified charge the latter being much easier in a 2-stroke having no valves in the cylinder head.

The engines needed much lower service time, used not much more oil than four strokes but with zero (engine) oil disposal problems. Were cheap to make (no costly cylinder heads no cams no poppet valves).They were more powerful for their size so made more power and were great for mid range pull just where we need it on road cars.

Thanks of the 1970's stinky clanky strokers and throw those ideas away. They new ones were poles apart.

So after all that, why did Ford fit the clatter old crossflow into their new small car?

EU rule about catalysts and O2 sensors did for the 2-stroke. The stroker was cleaner and better in all respect but the one rule regarding how the exhaust catalyst and O2 sensor must be. This killed the whole lot. A stratified charge engine injects a rich air fuel mixture just before the spark fires, which ignites easily. Hot compressed air within the cylinder gives a full and clean burn with unused oxygen heading down the exhaust. Overall a DI stratified runs much weaker than a normal engine. The catalyst wont have enough fuel for it to operate so it can't be used in the way the rules mandated.

Political meddling led directly to more diesels on the road and has given us the current problems with emissions scandals.

Right now, BRP have fuel efficient and powerful DI 2 strokes that (guess what) hammer the US EPA emission regs but they can't be used on EU roads.
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides


Last edited by DaveMcT; 14-09-2016 at 10:40.
DaveMcT is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 18-09-2016   #18
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: North Herts
Posts: 2,163
Thanks: 293
Trader Rating: 0
United Kingdom 
Re: Euro 6 engine software update letter?

Quote Originally Posted by jrkitching View Post
This story from the unfolding VW emissions scandal makes interesting reading. Interesting, that is, if you're not the owner of a Euro6 diesel car. If you are, then you might want to substitute 'scary' for 'interesting'....
For a UK perspective on what that 'update' might be to acheive, see here : http://www.telegraph.co.uk/cars/advi...ecrease-and-s/ and read the bit under the photo of the blue Mercedes...
Thanks jrkitching thanked for this post
__________________
2018 Panda 4x4 MJ :: North Herts :: Remember, if you find a post helpful, press the smiley face 'thanks' button below
Herts Hillhopper is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 21-03-2017   #19
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Aberdeen
Posts: 90
Thanks: 7
Trader Rating: 0
United Kingdom 
Re: Euro 6 engine software update letter?

It's happened!

My 4x4 went in for it's first annual service at the end of last week and the snappily titled "Vehicle Service Campaign Notification - FIAT Panda 4x4 with 1.3 MultiJet Euro 6 Engine - Engine Control Module Software Update -Campaign Ref 6026" update was applied.

So far I would say that throttle response is not what it used to be and there are now definite new flat spots when trying to nip quickly out of junctions. Also, when cruising along at around 30 to 40mph speed limits along flat, or slightly downhill, roads the engine now has periods of not being able to make its mind up whether to provide power or to idle. The symptom being that the car can now have very obvious periods of surging and slowing - similar to if you were dipping the clutch as you were driving along.

So not too impressed, but have only been out in it about 5 times since it was done, so it may be too soon to say and things might bed in.

There has always been an occasional bit of a flat spot when pulling out of the end of our street that I put down to turbo lag type issues, but it wasn't nearly so noticable as it is now. It's as if the update has enhanced the negative characteristics.

So..... Anyone else had similar experiences, or know if the ECU might still be learning and things might bed in from here, or know if this software update can be backed out?

Yours grumpily!
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

MikeySkiBoy is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 21-03-2017   #20
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Beccles, Suffolk
Posts: 2,368
Thanks: 197
Trader Rating: 0
United Kingdom 
Re: Euro 6 engine software update letter?

This would seriously p*ss me off if it were my car.
__________________
Barchetta LE (no 2468), 1998, Silver with Red Hood and Red Leather Interior, Hardtop, Wind-stop, Novitec SS Exhaust
Panda Cross Twinair, 15 Reg, in glorious Yellow , replacing a much-loved yellow DS3 DSport THP
gar074 is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 21-03-2017   #21
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Faringdon, Oxfordshire UK
Posts: 6,239
Thanks: 501
Trader Rating: 1
portland_bill has donated!
United Kingdom 
Re: Euro 6 engine software update letter?

I'd be taking it back and demanding they mend it this time, not break it. Arrive at service reception at a busy time, lots of other customers there. Talk slightly louder than usual, but just persistent, not rude or angry. Gets their attention.
Likes The Panda Nut liked this post
__________________
13 years motor trade, 16 years motor industry. 14 years Driving Instructor & 7 years Fleet Trainer
Panda Alessi
portland_bill is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 22-03-2017   #22
Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Dorset
Posts: 8,439
Thanks: 886
Trader Rating: 0
United Kingdom 
Re: Euro 6 engine software update letter?

Quote Originally Posted by MikeySkiBoy View Post
So far I would say that throttle response is not what it used to be and there are now definite new flat spots when trying to nip quickly out of junctions. Also, when cruising along at around 30 to 40mph speed limits along flat, or slightly downhill, roads the engine now has periods of not being able to make its mind up whether to provide power or to idle. The symptom being that the car can now have very obvious periods of surging and slowing - similar to if you were dipping the clutch as you were driving along.
It's quite likely making increased use of EGR, which will also wear the engine out faster and lead to more maintenance issues further on down the line .

For liability reasons, I'd expect that Fiat have designed this so that it can't be rolled back .

Wonder what it will do to fuel economy?

Quote Originally Posted by gar074 View Post
This would seriously p*ss me off if it were my car.
Me too. Which may be why those VW owners are considering a class action lawsuit to get compensation from the manufacturer.

IMO diesel passenger cars are dead in the water now. It likely won't be long before we see both central and local governments implementing targeted fiscal policies to remove any perceived cost advantages to owning one.
Likes murphyv310 liked this post
__________________


"Just 'cos you're not paranoid, doesn't mean they're not out to get you"


Last edited by jrkitching; 22-03-2017 at 02:14.
jrkitching is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 22-03-2017   #23
2017 Panda City Cross
 
murphyv310's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Kilmarnock
Posts: 1,099
Thanks: 71
Trader Rating: 0
murphyv310 has donated!
murphyv310 is an honorary friend of the forum :)
United Kingdom 
Re: Euro 6 engine software update letter?

I've heard of driveability issues with VW that have been "reprogrammed" the neighbours sons Golf with the 1.6 diesel engine has been a nightmare since.
Likes jrkitching liked this post
__________________
http://badges.fuelly.com/images/sig-uk/917112.png

Cheers Trevor
murphyv310 is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 22-03-2017   #24
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 18
Thanks: 1
Trader Rating: 0
United Kingdom 
Re: Euro 6 engine software update letter?

Our Trekking MJ Euro 6 had the 6026 update letter and after a bit of trawling I couldn't see any real negative experience here and on the web so organised it to be done. My basic thinking was that if it improves emissions then that is 'a good thing'.
I just about felt I could detect a slight change in the fly by wire throttle feeling but that was all. It still pulls well when we ask it to Go! and now it just feels like it the new normal. I missed the first fuel fill after the change so cannot check Fuelly figures yet but I will post when I next fill her up. So far there does not seem to be an obvious issue associated with the software change.
Thanks jrkitching thanked for this post
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

Russandgizzie is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 23-03-2017   #25
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Aberdeen
Posts: 90
Thanks: 7
Trader Rating: 0
United Kingdom 
Re: Euro 6 engine software update letter?

I would say that the update has certainly changed the charactersitics of the throttle and engine response. I'm now trying to figure out if it just means that I have to adapt to suit it, or if the ECU is still doing some sort of learning procedure, or if there is a problem.

If I keep the revs up a bit higher than I would normally do, and change up a bit later, it doesn't seem too bad. However, driving like that that will surely have a negative effect on the emissions that the update was supposed to reduce!

I'll run it for a few more days and will then see if we have bonded again, or if I need to go back to the dealer.
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

MikeySkiBoy is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 27-03-2017   #26
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 798
Thanks: 13
Trader Rating: 0
JCarp16 has donated!
United Kingdom 
Re: Euro 6 engine software update letter?

Quote Originally Posted by murphyv310 View Post
I've heard of driveability issues with VW that have been "reprogrammed" the neighbours sons Golf with the 1.6 diesel engine has been a nightmare since.
He's not the only one who has experienced that it seems https://www.theguardian.com/money/20...ar-undriveable
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

JCarp16 is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 21-05-2017   #27
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 28
Thanks: 0
Trader Rating: 0
United Kingdom 
Quote Originally Posted by MikeySkiBoy View Post
It's happened!

My 4x4 went in for it's first annual service at the end of last week and the snappily titled "Vehicle Service Campaign Notification - FIAT Panda 4x4 with 1.3 MultiJet Euro 6 Engine - Engine Control Module Software Update -Campaign Ref 6026" update was applied.

So far I would say that throttle response is not what it used to be and there are now definite new flat spots when trying to nip quickly out of junctions. Also, when cruising along at around 30 to 40mph speed limits along flat, or slightly downhill, roads the engine now has periods of not being able to make its mind up whether to provide power or to idle. The symptom being that the car can now have very obvious periods of surging and slowing - similar to if you were dipping the clutch as you were driving along.

So not too impressed, but have only been out in it about 5 times since it was done, so it may be too soon to say and things might bed in.

There has always been an occasional bit of a flat spot when pulling out of the end of our street that I put down to turbo lag type issues, but it wasn't nearly so noticable as it is now. It's as if the update has enhanced the negative characteristics.

So..... Anyone else had similar experiences, or know if the ECU might still be learning and things might bed in from here, or know if this software update can be backed out?

Yours grumpily!
Sorry to hear the update's made things worse for you mate, but I'm so glad I came across your post.

I've refused the update so far as I figured less emissions probably equals less power. However, my 4x4 has had flat spots and hesitations pretty much since new, and in recent months they seem to have gotten worse. In the last 3 months, it's spent around 4 weeks at the dealers, and they still can't track down the fault, and in actual fact, they've concluded that there's nothing wrong with it.

As they can't find fault with it, but I'm still insisting there's an issue, they've suggested that the software update could be worth a try, but after reading your post, there's no chance I'll be letting them apply it.

Also, after reading that you've always had flat spots, I'm kind of wondering if it's just a characteristic of the car that maybe bothers some people more than others.
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

Ventmore is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 21-05-2017   #28
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Aberdeen
Posts: 90
Thanks: 7
Trader Rating: 0
United Kingdom 
Re: Euro 6 engine software update letter?

Well...........

My Panda went back to the dealer and we went out for a very pleasant drive with a senior mechanic at the wheel and me as a passenger. Of course, she was on her very best behaviour and the intermittent issue was not showing and no progress was made.

There was a glow plug error noted a day or two before the visit and they hooked her up to their ECU reader and it was noted that there was an issue with cylinder 3 glow plug. As I think these plugs are only used to heat the cylinders prior to ignition, I doubted that would cause the issue.

She went back in to get the plug replaced and I asked them to have another look - which they did and found nothing again. It sounds like they are not willing to do anything unless they can find something to poke.

Since the plug was replaced she has been much better, which seems strange, but there is definitely still an intermittent issue. You can tell as soon as you start her up whether she is going to play along, or not. The engine is far more eager to rev, sounds healthier and just feels right underfoot. Unfortunately I have not been able to identify any logic to why she is absolutely fine sometimes and then not at others, to varying degrees.

Whether the software update made the issue worse, I am not at all sure. It may well be the case that the failing glow plug was indeed causing confusion in the ECU and that it was making things worse - it all happened around the same time. As for the update reducing the power, I really can't say that I've noticed that at all and, for the majority of the time, she rattles along as nicely as before.

So things are better, and maybe back to as they were before the update, but there is definitely still an issue and, as you say, it may just be a “characteristic” that I'll have to live with - until the fault comes on and stays on until I can get her to the dealer..
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

MikeySkiBoy is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 22-05-2017   #29
2017 Panda City Cross
 
murphyv310's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Kilmarnock
Posts: 1,099
Thanks: 71
Trader Rating: 0
murphyv310 has donated!
murphyv310 is an honorary friend of the forum :)
United Kingdom 
Re: Euro 6 engine software update letter?

Quote Originally Posted by Ventmore View Post
Sorry to hear the update's made things worse for you mate, but I'm so glad I came across your post.

I've refused the update so far as I figured less emissions probably equals less power. However, my 4x4 has had flat spots and hesitations pretty much since new, and in recent months they seem to have gotten worse. In the last 3 months, it's spent around 4 weeks at the dealers, and they still can't track down the fault, and in actual fact, they've concluded that there's nothing wrong with it.

As they can't find fault with it, but I'm still insisting there's an issue, they've suggested that the software update could be worth a try, but after reading your post, there's no chance I'll be letting them apply it.

Also, after reading that you've always had flat spots, I'm kind of wondering if it's just a characteristic of the car that maybe bothers some people more than others.
In 1993 I bought a new Skoda Favorit GLXIE. It was terribly hesitant. As a SOC member and past Scottish Technical Secretary I knew the car was far from right. David Bland was Skoda UK's sales regional manager for Scotland and he came to access the car. He didn't know a spark plug from a tyre. It was a pointless exercise. After a lot of letters and complaints I got no joy. Skoda were worse under VW at the time than they were under the communists.
The problem was the 136 engine was always difficult to time and adding fuel injection and a knock sensor would cause awful hesitation as t h e system tried to retard the timing on full throttle. I eventually managed to fit a standard coil, distributor and electronic control box. Although the car pinked slightly it did 0-60 in under 10secs. Skoda drove my car and admitted it was far more tractable.
Personally I believe electronics are not always the best way to go.
A few weeks ago I drove a 120LS Estelle with motorbike carbs and turbo, it was checked on a rolling road at 190Bhp @ 7200 Rpm..... It wasssss quick, sub 7 secs to 60. No electronics.
Likes The Panda Nut liked this post
__________________
http://badges.fuelly.com/images/sig-uk/917112.png

Cheers Trevor
murphyv310 is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 22-05-2017   #30
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 28
Thanks: 0
Trader Rating: 0
United Kingdom 
Re: Euro 6 engine software update letter?

Quote Originally Posted by MikeySkiBoy View Post
Well...........

My Panda went back to the dealer and we went out for a very pleasant drive with a senior mechanic at the wheel and me as a passenger. Of course, she was on her very best behaviour and the intermittent issue was not showing and no progress was made.

There was a glow plug error noted a day or two before the visit and they hooked her up to their ECU reader and it was noted that there was an issue with cylinder 3 glow plug. As I think these plugs are only used to heat the cylinders prior to ignition, I doubted that would cause the issue.

She went back in to get the plug replaced and I asked them to have another look - which they did and found nothing again. It sounds like they are not willing to do anything unless they can find something to poke.

Since the plug was replaced she has been much better, which seems strange, but there is definitely still an intermittent issue. You can tell as soon as you start her up whether she is going to play along, or not. The engine is far more eager to rev, sounds healthier and just feels right underfoot. Unfortunately I have not been able to identify any logic to why she is absolutely fine sometimes and then not at others, to varying degrees.

Whether the software update made the issue worse, I am not at all sure. It may well be the case that the failing glow plug was indeed causing confusion in the ECU and that it was making things worse - it all happened around the same time. As for the update reducing the power, I really can't say that I've noticed that at all and, for the majority of the time, she rattles along as nicely as before.

So things are better, and maybe back to as they were before the update, but there is definitely still an issue and, as you say, it may just be a “characteristic” that I'll have to live with - until the fault comes on and stays on until I can get her to the dealer..
Glad to hear things are going a little better for you now.

I have exactly the same thing where I can tell on morning if it's going to misbehave or not. As you say, it just revs much more freely.

I have a few issues which I won't hijack the thread with too much, but if the car has been left for a good 6 hours or so, if I'm just taking it very easy, it'll often feel like the engine has no power at all and is bogging down, then after a few seconds, I'll suddenly get a burst of power.

I also have a strange blip at around 1450 revs where i get a split second drop in power......it feels like the car just hiccupped. This one happens every time if I'm just accelerating gently.

I'm also getting some issues on the motorway where it'll suddenly feel like I get a spit second surge in power.

Will probably end up opening a new thread on this, as the dealer has basically said they can't find anything wrong with it. Basically, if there aren't any codes, they're satisfied that there's nothing wrong. They have just put a donor accelerator pedal on at my request (actually, I asked them to take it off and test it as I suspected a throttle position sensor issue but a new pedal to test works too), but that seems to have made no difference whatsoever.
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

Ventmore is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Reply
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump
Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
(G) Software update salmmi Croma 1 25-12-2012 18:17
(G) Free Software Updates Letter earthman Panda 14 03-02-2012 14:01
(G) Software update PandaLounge 500 28 01-02-2009 10:55
Good free letter writing software ? Koa Leisure Lounge 3 10-06-2007 00:51
(G) software update andy thrill Stilo 14 13-03-2004 06:31