west71 said:

Have been to see car in current state. Attached photos of bell housing and flywheel which is a dual mass flywheel.
Mechanic said this is wear and tear and is known on this model panda.

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Condolences - this is the sort of stuff nightmares are made of.

My take is that no car buyer would reasonably expect a DMF to fail after 38 months / 33,000 miles, nor would they expect its failure to cause so much collateral damage.

I'd certainly try to get some sort of goodwill gesture from Fiat on this one; I doubt they'll cover all of the cost, but I'd expect to see some sort of contribution.

west71 said:

Mechanic said this is wear and tear and is known on this model panda. So I will be pursuing fiat to treat as though under warranty.

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Be careful what words you use when talking to Fiat, as the warranty specifically excludes wear and tear items.

west71 said:

I am looking at close to £5k for the repairs.

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.

That is perilously close to the book trade in value of the car, and makes this the mechanical equivalent of a CatD writeoff.

Salvage value in its current state + the quoted cost of repair is likely more than the car will be worth once repaired.

If Fiat won't contribute anything, I'd consider selling it 'as is' and putting the proceeds and the £5k towards another car.

Many thanks for your reply. Will post again when I know what fiat's response is. Maybe fortunately I am not talking to them, the service man at Hartwell's is so he may be saying the right things. I had forgotten wear and tear isn't covered.

west71 said:

Have been to see car in current state. Attached photos of bell housing and flywheel which is a dual mass flywheel.
Mechanic said this is wear and tear and is known on this model panda. So I will be pursuing fiat to treat as though under warranty.

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thanks for posting - it the OX14 workshop I presume.

£5K.. that's appalling, the replacement gearbox is obviously a fair chunk of that

is it the black plastic looking swivelling arm that is not a service item..??

or the bearing mount on front of the gearbox ( Asa James )??.

Charlie

Sorry I don't really understand the pictures, I just took them. I can see scraping damage to the inside of the bell housing, and marks on the flywheel. I have to take as valid what the service people tell me.

It's not the bellhousing that's damaged, if you look where the input shaft is ( middle of bellhousing) you can see the metal guide that the release bearing sits on, the end of that is worn down, and can't be bought separate, new bellhousing required. I've seen it replaced under warranty as the customer had great difficulty selecting gear, again only on a MiTo, but worth the argument.

There have been a couple of comments about how rough the TA engine is, which I don't generally endorse. In 39000 miles over three years there have only been a handful of occasions that I've experienced any roughness - when I've allowed the revs to drop to a ridiculously low level and the engine has become very - almost alarmingly - lumpy. Could allowing the engine to labour in that way have anything to do with flywheel failures?

babbo_umbro said:

Could allowing the engine to labour in that way have anything to do with flywheel failures?

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It would be very alarming if that were the case, as allowing the engine to grumble along at low revs is the only way to get decent fuel consumption, and that nagging gear change indicator positively encourages it. At times it feels like it's trying to shake itself to bits.

On a related subject, does anyone know the cost of extending the warranty beyond 3 years? I seem to recall you can buy an extended warranty from Fiat at the time of first registration, but some manufacturers (eg Citroen) have a scheme whereby you can extend the warranty at any time before it expires. I normally run a mile from that kind of insurance cash-cow, as it's usually much cheaper to put some money aside for repairs/replacements as and when, but a few £100 a year could turn out to be a good investment if there's a risk of a major engine failure costing £1000s.

gar074 said:

It would be very alarming if that were the case, as allowing the engine to grumble along at low revs is the only way to get decent fuel consumption, and that nagging gear change indicator positively encourages it. At times it feels like it's trying to shake itself to bits.

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I meant letting the revs drop so far that it's almost stalling, not normal plugging away at 1200 revs or something similar - otherwise I've never experienced the sort of vibration that appears to be normal for you. Not sure I've ever looked at the gearchange indicator.

I see what you mean, but when normal-driving-mode for decent fuel economy is circa 1200 revs, you don't need to let the revs drop very far before the thing starts complaining.

gar074 said:

It would be very alarming if that were the case, as allowing the engine to grumble along at low revs is the only way to get decent fuel consumption, and that nagging gear change indicator positively encourages it. At times it feels like it's trying to shake itself to bits.

On a related subject, does anyone know the cost of extending the warranty beyond 3 years? I seem to recall you can buy an extended warranty from Fiat at the time of first registration, but some manufacturers (eg Citroen) have a scheme whereby you can extend the warranty at any time before it expires. I normally run a mile from that kind of insurance cash-cow, as it's usually much cheaper to put some money aside for repairs/replacements as and when, but a few £100 a year could turn out to be a good investment if there's a risk of a major engine failure costing £1000s.

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I find the change indicator on my 500 TA to be fairly sensible and it doesent coax me in to changing up too early. Now that the engine is fully run-in at 24k it will happily phutter along at 1200rpm as you say however in my experience slogging the engine in top gear, although it will happily do it, does not give the best economy, I get better results if I keep it in the happy zone of peak torque which is around 1900 to 2000rpm, I tend to stay in 4th longer as a result. I appreciate the gearing is different on a Panda though but peak torque will be the same.

gar074 said:

On a related subject, does anyone know the cost of extending the warranty beyond 3 years? I seem to recall you can buy an extended warranty from Fiat at the time of first registration, but some manufacturers (eg Citroen) have a scheme whereby you can extend the warranty at any time before it expires. I normally run a mile from that kind of insurance cash-cow, as it's usually much cheaper to put some money aside for repairs/replacements as and when, but a few £100 a year could turn out to be a good investment if there's a risk of a major engine failure costing £1000s.

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The problem is that a DMF failure might not be covered by an extended warranty. A quick internet search reveals that many extended warranty companies consider a DMF to be a wear and tear item and thus excluded. Proving that a DMF has failed for reasons other than wear and tear could be problematic :bang:.

Any extended warranty which proves to be a good investment for the majority of folks goes against the laws of nature and will quickly be removed from the market.

About the only thing I can think of that's worse than paying 9 grand for a car and having to fork out £5k for an unexpected bill a year later is paying 9 grand for a car, paying another £500 to extend the warranty for a couple of years, and still having to fork out £5k for an unexpected bill a year later.

Time will tell if this is a one-off (perhaps caused by some sort of abuse before the current owner bought the car), or a more widespread issue. Thus far, thankfully there haven't been many reports of similar failures - though this will be of little comfort to the unfortunate OP.

Sadly manufacturers and franchised dealers have a vested interest in costly out-of-warranty repairs on relatively young cars as it keeps up the momentum of customers trading in before the warranty expires. These sort of scare stories actually help new car sales.

jrkitching said:

Any extended warranty which proves to be a good investment for the majority of folks goes against the laws of nature and will quickly be removed from the market.

About the only thing I can think of that's worse than paying 9 grand for a car and having to fork out £5k for an unexpected bill a year later is paying 9 grand for a car, paying another £500 to extend the warranty for a couple of years, and still having to fork out £5k for an unexpected bill a year later.

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Wise words, as always.

Asa James said:

It's not the bellhousing that's damaged, if you look where the input shaft is ( middle of bellhousing) you can see the metal guide that the release bearing sits on, the end of that is worn down, and can't be bought separate, new bellhousing required. I've seen it replaced under warranty as the customer had great difficulty selecting gear, again only on a MiTo, but worth the argument.

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IF you could get a replacement, is it actually bolted into the bellhousing - or riveted home..??

looks fairly standard in design.. previous 4cyl panda diagram = http://eper.fiatforum.com/eper/navi...3&WINDOW_ID=1&SGRP_COD=19&SGS_COD=1&DRW_NUM=2

basic architecture = 500 TA ( 5 speed box) =http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FIAT-500-TWINAIR-0-9-PETROL-MANUAL-GEARBOX-5-SPEED-2007-2015-5-/182219094764?hash=item2a6d1abaec:g:lWAAAOSwInxXNv7J

Charlie

From what I could see on the ones I've done, it's just a press interference fit, and sadly not listed in the first link

And for those less technically minded folks wondering just what the heck a DMF is and how it works, this is a link to a rather pretty animation.

jrkitching said:

And for those less technically minded folks wondering just what the heck a DMF is and how it works, this here is a link to a rather pretty animation.

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And they are generally fitted to ANYTHING that isn't a SMOOTH running engine,

so ;
Diesel,
less than 4 cylinder Petrol

the theory being it helps "dampen" vibration / harmonics.

there is talk of people fracturing crankshafts where people have fitted "solid" traditional flywheels once an original DMF has broken down.

I hadn't realised that the TA had a DMF. As DMFs are one of the reasons why I now avoid diesels like the plague (2 family members have had expensive DMF failures), I'm a bit pee'd off. And if the addition of a DMF on the TA is a relatively recent development, presumably we can't take much comfort from the fact that older TAs seem to have a decent reliability record, as they will be DMF-free. Sigh.

Have now heard from dealer who have tried to get assistance from Fiat. No joy, they won't contribute anything to the cost of repair. However, dealer now thinks that gearbox isn't damaged and would like to replace flywheel and clutch for £1500. Risk is that they are wrong and gearbox turns out to be damaged as well which will only be apparent once they have finished. Any views?

west71 said:

Have now heard from dealer who have tried to get assistance from Fiat. No joy, they won't contribute anything to the cost of repair. However, dealer now thinks that gearbox isn't damaged and would like to replace flywheel and clutch for £1500. Risk is that they are wrong and gearbox turns out to be damaged as well which will only be apparent once they have finished. Any views?

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Condolences; I'm sure this isn't what you want to hear, but sadly it doesn't surprise me. Fiat are not known for their generosity in supporting customers out of warranty. They might even have refused this one if the car had been under warranty, particularly in the third year.

I posted the following on this subject recently in another thread - it was your case I had in mind at the time:

However, the criteria Fiat have given you for a goodwill contribution are much more worrying - if I've read what you've posted correctly, they're saying that they will only even consider this if:

1. the car is less than four years old and
2. you are the original owner from new (note this would seem to disqualify all prereg vehicles) and
3. the car has a full service history with all servicing being done by the franchised dealer network.

If Fiat really are taking this stance in all cases, it's going to leave quite a few folks who are currently negotiating goodwill contributions in respect of much newer cars well and truly up the proverbial without a wotsit. IMO this would be an extremely harsh policy.

A DMF is a wear and tear item and its failure at some time during the life of the car is by no means unlikely; certainly it should be inspected carefully every time the clutch is changed and an informed decision taken as to whether it should be replaced at the same time. This early in a car's life, I'd say it's premature, but then again you have no way of knowing how the car was used (or abused) by its previous owner. Yours is the only one I've heard of, but the Euro6 TA hasn't been around that long & yours must be one of the first.

My biggest problem with this would be the price; £1500 for a DMF & clutch is outrageous, but that is a reflection on the cost of main dealer servicing with OEM parts, and perhaps no more outrageous than the folks who have been charged north of £300 for a set of front discs & pads. However, they have your car in pieces now and I can't see any reasonable alternative to paying this if you want the car back. This is one of the insidious things about finding a fault on a just-out-of-warranty car; your only hope of getting a contribution from Fiat is to take it to a franchised dealer, and if they refuse, by then the car is in bits & you can't easily go elsewhere.

Personally I'd take a risk with the gearbox. Check carefully for oil leaks until you're sure all is well. If the worst happens and it does need to be replaced, at least you can source a secondhand gearbox from a breakers once you've got the car back.

In time, no doubt aftermarket DMF's will be available, and having the same work done by an indie using aftermarket parts should be much cheaper, but sadly this won't be any help to the OP. It may also be that an aftermarket SMF becomes available as a replacement (remember the Euro5 85TA manages well enough with a SMF) and that will be much cheaper.

I've done a quick internet search and can't find any other source for the part, though there are folks selling new OEM DMF's for the 500L for under £300.

Many thanks for your comments. I have raised a case myself with fiat but don't expect to get a different response. If I don't I will go ahead with the the clutch and flywheel replacement. Interestingly the previous and only other owner was fiat fleet services so they are in a better position than most to see how it was previously driven.

I have now had seven cars in my driving life and only one, a 1989 Corolla had a clutch replacement and that was at well over 100k miles. Maybe 4x4s aren't for me.