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Old 18-05-2016   #31
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Re: If your car is in warranty...important!

So the main dealer is not responsible for using the "wrong" oil and invalidating the warranty?
How can that be so?
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Old 19-05-2016   #32
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Re: If your car is in warranty...important!

Exactly!
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Old 25-05-2016   #33
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Re: If your car is in warranty...important!

Quote Originally Posted by panda panda View Post
So the main dealer is not responsible for using the "wrong" oil and invalidating the warranty?
How can that be so?
Well I'll tell you a little story that happens to be true.

A dealer fills a cars gearbox with the oil that his workshop manual informs him is correct, 2 months later the gearbox fails and the car is back, poor lubrication caused a synchromesh failure and caused a ton of swarf and crap in the box.

Workshop manual informs the correct oil was used so the gearbox is to be replaced under warranty, the car manufacturer requests return of the box back to them for inspection due to the unusual failure.

Manufacturer comes back and says the wrong oil has been used and as such is no longer covered under warranty due to improper maintenance. Service department argues correct oil has been used.

Turns out the manual used by the dealer has been created using the dealer groups approved suppliers products for reference. These oils and lubricants claim to meet the manufacturer requirements but are not individually certified to do so. As the manufacturer didn't certify the oil used they are under no obligation to do anything about it.

The service manager then contacts the oil company and to try and work out what happened. They oil company says that while they class the oil as meeting this standard, the manufacturer of the car hasn't given the spec the official approval. They say it is the dealers responsibility to check the suitability of products.

The service manager then calls the dealer group technical department and demands answers. They say that as a whole, the dealer network is supplied by the oil manufacturer, due to contracts and supply agreements. So far as they are concerned as the lubricants meet or exceed the original specifications as stated by the lubricant manufacturers then they agree to buy in bulk, and by bulk we mean the whole company buying every fluid they need from this company. As such they do not see it to be a issue.

The manager then rings the legal department as now the customer is rightfully annoyed that his 12 month old car has lunched it's gearbox and has been told the manufacturer is arguing against fixing it, the legal department says that as they were told in writing that the oils used meet the specifications that the group is not liable, the oil company is. The dealer group as such refuses to pay for the replacement of the gearbox.

The customer after 3 months of having the mick taken, decides to involve a solicitor and sues the dealer group for basically knackering his car and leaving him with a 4k bill to fix it. It goes like this:

1) the dealer says they acted in good faith and used a product that to their awareness met the required standard and as such were not liable

2) the lubricant manufacturer says that that the oil supplied is stated to meet manufacturer spec, however since the manufacturer has not approved the oil, it is the users responsibility to check it's suitability. They were not dishonest as the product never claimed to be approved by the manufacturer.

3) The vehicle manufacturer says that the product has never been tested by them and does not fit type approval. As such the product should not be used in the vehicle as it may cause harm and invalidate the warranty. While the manufacturer states it does have a approval with only 2 lubricants manufacturers, the approval process is open to any company that wants to submit a application and product for certification. None have done so. It says that product approval is commonly used in the industry to confirm product suitability and all of the major vehicle manufacturers use this process. As such they are not at fault.

4) The dealer group head office says that to their awareness the oils used met the required standard. They were informed by the supplier that it met the standards and as such has no way of knowing that the product could cause damage. However they confirmed that the oil used was not type approved for that vehicle but as they were operating in good faith using information provided, they were not liable for the fault.

5) the type approved oil manufacturer for the vehicle was asked to give evidence, they explained that the product the supply is used as factory fill and is certified to fit all requirements for the vehicle. This oil was tested extensively and was fit all specs needed. When asked why most dealerships do not use this oil, they say

"this is nothing more than economics. Our oils are supplied to manufacturer who build x cars per year and as such we are able to offer them a preferential rate of cost. Dealerships, aftermarket suppliers and workshops however will purchase whichever product is at a price advantage".

"If we supply this motor group with the same amount of product they they buy from the supplier in question, we would not be able to meet the same price point, due to their massive buying power and ownership of sister company's that use the same R&D budgets. As a result most do not use our product and use alternatives that while at a lower cost cannot be relied upon to perform in the same way".

"The car model in question, with our lubricants used, was tested for over 2 million kilometers during development with no failures or issues arising from the use of our products, other type approved products in the correct applications will go through similarly difficult testing to fit these criteria"

When asked why most oil companies do not submit for type approval for this vehicle manufacturer they responded:

"In the case of Daimler Benz, Ford Automobile, Volkswagen Auto Group, BMW and General Motors, over 85% of available lubrication products have been type approved. This is due to market share considerations. When vehicles have a high market saturation, the oil manufacturers know that they can recoup the costs incurred in approval, they will also massively increase sales and make vast profit when selling their products from everyone from the vehicle builder to the independent workshop. As the vehicle manufacturer in question, while very healthy has a much lower market share, the level of profit and value in getting that approval is much lower. So many do not do so".

In the end the case was not settled in court due to the ambiguity and difficulty in assigning blame due to the multiple errors and layers of incorrect information supplied to all parties and also by them. The owner had to pay for the repairs to the vehicle themselves. They swore never to buy a car from that manufacturer nor from that dealer a group again. Its a very unusual circumstance and there a one in a million chance it could happen to you. But this is the point. Yes the maker of the car may have the a company they market with and promote, but that product has been tested and proved to work.

As a rough example, if say a panda twin air had a emissions fault due to the incorrect oil, the cost to repair could be up to 3000, this includes egr valve, catalyst system, multiple sensors, reservicing and electronic reprogramming plus labour, all from using a oil that has a excessive ash content. This has happened with many cars from plenty of brands but the fact is, if the stuff in the car is wrong, there's no way of knowing how it can work out.
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Old 25-05-2016   #34
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Re: If your car is in warranty...important!

Great post - really thought-provoking. It seems crazy that the person who ended up footing the bill was arguably, of all the players, the person least responsible for the problem that arose with his car. The ducking and diving by the dealer network and the manufacturer is shameful. A case for strict liability, perhaps, to avoid the bullsh*t "good faith" arguments?
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Last edited by gar074; 25-05-2016 at 11:38.
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Old 25-05-2016   #35
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Re: If your car is in warranty...important!

The sooner I can get my Morris Minor up to every day standard and get myself shot of these stupid modern vehicles the better.
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Old 25-05-2016   #36
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Re: If your car is in warranty...important!

Quote Originally Posted by gar074 View Post
Great post - really thought-provoking. It seems crazy that the person who ended up footing the bill was arguably, of all the players, the person least responsible for the problem that arose with his car. The ducking and diving by the dealer network and the manufacturer is shameful. A case for strict liability, perhaps, to avoid the bullsh*t "good faith" arguments?
Totally agreed. The only people who were in a sense honest in this case were the two lubricant manufacturers. One openly stated that their product is not certified for the vehicle in question and never hid that fact and the other showed the reasons that their products were suitable and proven for the task in hand. Everybody else did their best to hide away and avoid blame.

For a car manufacturers or a large dealer group, 4k is small fry and wouldn't even register on the profit dial, but they shamefully ducked and dived to avoid paying, despite their approved workshops doing the damage.

The good faith argument should be moot in cases such as this, because the information was available from the get go and the majority of parties involved failed to do any due diligence, strict liability should have been taken as read, and I would have laid it straight at the dealer groups door.
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Old 25-05-2016   #37
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Re: If your car is in warranty...important!

Quote Originally Posted by aussiepanda View Post
The sooner I can get my Morris Minor up to every day standard and get myself shot of these stupid modern vehicles the better.
Haha I agree in many ways, despite my young years on this earth, my first car was..... An Austin Montego!

Not even remotely desirable, not fun but despite the reputation it was solid. I could fix it with some blu tac and a lump hammer, would probably run on mashed potatoes if I gave it half the chance and in less than a year gave me nothing but fun times and 30k under its tyres with a little tinkering!

Modern cars can be reliable and fun, but now everything is controlled by electronic systems and dealers who want to squeeze every last penny out of you. My missus Fiesta needed a new body control module, while the vehicle was in warranty they gave us the invoice of how much the manufacturer would be charged, 2968! One part and 2 hours labour, was horrified!
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Old 01-06-2016   #38
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Re: If your car is in warranty...important!

So I just sorted out the oil in my Panda, used pretty much 2.8l of Castrol edge titanium stuff. Oil filter was a bit of a bitch but gave eventually, same with the sump plug actually.

The filter I fitted was said to be a fiat one from shop4parts and came in a Fiat etc box but wasn't exactly the same looking, and I'm hoping this won't be a problem!

First ever oil change, along with first time doing discs and pads on a Citroen C5 recently, it's all fun and learning.
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Old 04-06-2016   #39
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Re: If your car is in warranty...important!

Quote Originally Posted by Alexiloki View Post
Well I'll tell you a little story that happens to be true.

A dealer fills a cars gearbox with the oil that his workshop manual informs him is correct, 2 months later the gearbox fails and the car is back, poor lubrication caused a synchromesh failure and caused a ton of swarf and crap in the box.

Workshop manual informs the correct oil was used so the gearbox is to be replaced under warranty, the car manufacturer requests return of the box back to them for inspection due to the unusual failure.

Manufacturer comes back and says the wrong oil has been used and as such is no longer covered under warranty due to improper maintenance. Service department argues correct oil has been used.

Turns out the manual used by the dealer has been created using the dealer groups approved suppliers products for reference. These oils and lubricants claim to meet the manufacturer requirements but are not individually certified to do so. As the manufacturer didn't certify the oil used they are under no obligation to do anything about it.

The service manager then contacts the oil company and to try and work out what happened. They oil company says that while they class the oil as meeting this standard, the manufacturer of the car hasn't given the spec the official approval. They say it is the dealers responsibility to check the suitability of products.

The service manager then calls the dealer group technical department and demands answers. They say that as a whole, the dealer network is supplied by the oil manufacturer, due to contracts and supply agreements. So far as they are concerned as the lubricants meet or exceed the original specifications as stated by the lubricant manufacturers then they agree to buy in bulk, and by bulk we mean the whole company buying every fluid they need from this company. As such they do not see it to be a issue.

The manager then rings the legal department as now the customer is rightfully annoyed that his 12 month old car has lunched it's gearbox and has been told the manufacturer is arguing against fixing it, the legal department says that as they were told in writing that the oils used meet the specifications that the group is not liable, the oil company is. The dealer group as such refuses to pay for the replacement of the gearbox.

The customer after 3 months of having the mick taken, decides to involve a solicitor and sues the dealer group for basically knackering his car and leaving him with a 4k bill to fix it. It goes like this:

1) the dealer says they acted in good faith and used a product that to their awareness met the required standard and as such were not liable

2) the lubricant manufacturer says that that the oil supplied is stated to meet manufacturer spec, however since the manufacturer has not approved the oil, it is the users responsibility to check it's suitability. They were not dishonest as the product never claimed to be approved by the manufacturer.

3) The vehicle manufacturer says that the product has never been tested by them and does not fit type approval. As such the product should not be used in the vehicle as it may cause harm and invalidate the warranty. While the manufacturer states it does have a approval with only 2 lubricants manufacturers, the approval process is open to any company that wants to submit a application and product for certification. None have done so. It says that product approval is commonly used in the industry to confirm product suitability and all of the major vehicle manufacturers use this process. As such they are not at fault.

4) The dealer group head office says that to their awareness the oils used met the required standard. They were informed by the supplier that it met the standards and as such has no way of knowing that the product could cause damage. However they confirmed that the oil used was not type approved for that vehicle but as they were operating in good faith using information provided, they were not liable for the fault.

5) the type approved oil manufacturer for the vehicle was asked to give evidence, they explained that the product the supply is used as factory fill and is certified to fit all requirements for the vehicle. This oil was tested extensively and was fit all specs needed. When asked why most dealerships do not use this oil, they say

"this is nothing more than economics. Our oils are supplied to manufacturer who build x cars per year and as such we are able to offer them a preferential rate of cost. Dealerships, aftermarket suppliers and workshops however will purchase whichever product is at a price advantage".

"If we supply this motor group with the same amount of product they they buy from the supplier in question, we would not be able to meet the same price point, due to their massive buying power and ownership of sister company's that use the same R&D budgets. As a result most do not use our product and use alternatives that while at a lower cost cannot be relied upon to perform in the same way".

"The car model in question, with our lubricants used, was tested for over 2 million kilometers during development with no failures or issues arising from the use of our products, other type approved products in the correct applications will go through similarly difficult testing to fit these criteria"

When asked why most oil companies do not submit for type approval for this vehicle manufacturer they responded:

"In the case of Daimler Benz, Ford Automobile, Volkswagen Auto Group, BMW and General Motors, over 85% of available lubrication products have been type approved. This is due to market share considerations. When vehicles have a high market saturation, the oil manufacturers know that they can recoup the costs incurred in approval, they will also massively increase sales and make vast profit when selling their products from everyone from the vehicle builder to the independent workshop. As the vehicle manufacturer in question, while very healthy has a much lower market share, the level of profit and value in getting that approval is much lower. So many do not do so".

In the end the case was not settled in court due to the ambiguity and difficulty in assigning blame due to the multiple errors and layers of incorrect information supplied to all parties and also by them. The owner had to pay for the repairs to the vehicle themselves. They swore never to buy a car from that manufacturer nor from that dealer a group again. Its a very unusual circumstance and there a one in a million chance it could happen to you. But this is the point. Yes the maker of the car may have the a company they market with and promote, but that product has been tested and proved to work.

As a rough example, if say a panda twin air had a emissions fault due to the incorrect oil, the cost to repair could be up to 3000, this includes egr valve, catalyst system, multiple sensors, reservicing and electronic reprogramming plus labour, all from using a oil that has a excessive ash content. This has happened with many cars from plenty of brands but the fact is, if the stuff in the car is wrong, there's no way of knowing how it can work out.

To me thats insane, take the dealer to small claims court and get a judge to rule,
If you lose, what would it be a extra 50 or so.
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Old 04-06-2016   #40
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Re: If your car is in warranty...important!

Quote Originally Posted by PandaMTB View Post
So I just sorted out the oil in my Panda, used pretty much 2.8l of Castrol edge titanium stuff. Oil filter was a bit of a bitch but gave eventually, same with the sump plug actually.

The filter I fitted was said to be a fiat one from shop4parts and came in a Fiat etc box but wasn't exactly the same looking, and I'm hoping this won't be a problem!

First ever oil change, along with first time doing discs and pads on a Citroen C5 recently, it's all fun and learning.
Happy days fun to have a tinker isn't it. if your car is in warranty though don't let them know you have changed it, can of worms may be opened.

When it comes to the filter there is more legal flexibility. This comes from something called the Block Exemption Regulations.

Basically back in the early 2000's, the government and OFT said that its unfair to be tied to dealer franchises to keep your warranty valid. Short and curly is that you can use none franchised garages that use OEM or matching quality (I'll come back to this) parts to protect your warranty, as long as they are VAT registered and competent.

I personally always use OEM filters if I can, simply because they are perfectly matched to the engine and QC is always high. However 2 manufacturers to also keep in mind is Mann and Bosch. Both have certified that their entire filter range meets or exceeds OEM standards in relation to block exemption and even offer evidence on request and therefore the can be used in place of the OEM filter.

MANN filters in particular are used as OEM parts for 87% of all cars in Europe, and the ones you get from the motor factors can be up to 60% cheaper that dealer price for the same product, lovely jubbly 😀
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Old 04-06-2016   #41
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Re: If your car is in warranty...important!

Quote Originally Posted by Officina red View Post
To me thats insane, take the dealer to small claims court and get a judge to rule,
If you lose, what would it be a extra 50 or so.
Well this was taken all the way up past the equivalent of the small claims and to the upper courts and it still didn't help. This is why I always consider buyer beware to be the best defence. I check and double check everything the dealers have done to my car and if I'm unhappy then I can hit them with a brick so to speak before their actions cause problems, suffice to say my local service department hates me
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Old 04-06-2016   #42
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Re: If your car is in warranty...important!

So what is the correct spec of oil for the 1.2 and twin air? ( apologies if I didn't read the whole thread)
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Old 04-06-2016   #43
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Re: If your car is in warranty...important!

Quote Originally Posted by Alexiloki View Post
Haha I agree in many ways, despite my young years on this earth, my first car was..... An Austin Montego!

Not even remotely desirable, not fun but despite the reputation it was solid. I could fix it with some blu tac and a lump hammer, would probably run on mashed potatoes if I gave it half the chance and in less than a year gave me nothing but fun times and 30k under its tyres with a little tinkering!

Modern cars can be reliable and fun, but now everything is controlled by electronic systems and dealers who want to squeeze every last penny out of you. My missus Fiesta needed a new body control module, while the vehicle was in warranty they gave us the invoice of how much the manufacturer would be charged, 2968! One part and 2 hours labour, was horrified!
Pardon my ignorance but what the hell is a body control module? 😂
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Old 04-06-2016   #44
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Re: If your car is in warranty...important!

Glorified distributor?

Unless it's something to stop body roll all with ESC program
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Last edited by leroya500; 04-06-2016 at 18:26.
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Old 04-06-2016   #45
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Re: If your car is in warranty...important!

Quote Originally Posted by triumph7 View Post
Pardon my ignorance but what the hell is a body control module? 😂
Body ECU (Electronic Control Unit),
Typically controls things like interior lighting, electric windows, electric seats and other toys. Can also be tied to central locking depending on car. Nothing to do with stability control.

Robert G8RPI.
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