murphyv310 said:

Hi.
Yes I am aware of the law with self levelling and washers. ...
So at times I get frustrated with regulations, these regulations and the law about aftermarket bulbs need to be carefully examined along with innovations from the likes of Philips,...

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I don't disagree! Trouble is, an insurance company (yours or that of someone else we may be unfortunate enough to bump into) will look for any excuse to not pay up. That's why I try and stay within the rules with lights, tyres and so on where possible. I have Halfords 130% brighter lights and for most of my driving they are fine (on road, off road, motorways or country lanes) The only time the seem 'poor' is after driving my Volvo around, with its Bi-xenons and 'active bending lights' (which means the beams turn with the steering, like the old Citroen DSs did)
In time, the rules will catch up with the technology...

Herts Hillhopper said:

Trouble is, an insurance company (yours or that of someone else we may be unfortunate enough to bump into) will look for any excuse to not pay up. That's why I try and stay within the rules with lights, tyres and so on where possible.

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If you are involved in an accident in which someone is killed or seriously injured and your unapproved lighting or tyres are implicated, then insurance will be the least of your worries as in today's 'blame culture' you could be facing a dangerous driving charge with the prospect of a lengthy prison sentence. Dangerous driving applies to the condition of your vehicle, as well as the standard of your driving.

Section 2A of the Road Traffic Act 1988 provides that a person is to be regarded as driving dangerously "if it would be obvious to a competent and careful driver that driving the vehicle in its current state would be dangerous".

Your future liberty will not depend on whether you think fitting the unapproved parts was dangerous. It will depend on whether 12 men and women on a jury, guided by the arguments of a persuasive prosecution barrister and mindful of the young widow crying in the Court, think it was. It's not a place I'd like to be, nor a chance I'd like to take.

We live in a society bound by rules, some of which are outdated , well overdue for change, and will no doubt be changed in the future. We also live in an increasingly prevalent 'blame culture', in which any death or injury automatically results in the search for a guilty party who will be judged not by common sense, but by whether they have broken the rules.

If you can't drive safely within the limits of lighting you can legally fit, the solution is simple and obvious. Slow down.

Hi.
Two posts I fully agree with. Being fair I tend to avoid driving in the dark now and when I do hope the Night Breaker bulbs will be a solution for me. As an advanced driver myself and also completed some of a driving instructor course before I took ill around seven years ago I am well aware of what I'm doing and the law. There have been instances where I've nearly stopped by incompetence from other drivers that haven't dipped or have badly laden vehicles which has blinded me.
Where it all falls down is the owners of older vehicles with poorer lights cannot compete with the brighter lights of today, the oncoming penetration of light totally floods the light from the vehicle you are driving. Reflections from wet road surfaces, puddles etcetera reduce your vision too. The other disadvantage is modern LED lights produce light in a narrow spectrum, unlike a filament bulb. This can cause some obstacles or parts of the road to appear either brighter or dimmer than what's expected, the driver of the car with a filament bulb could then be confused leading to an accident situation.
My feeling is the regs need addressing and soon.

murphyv310 said:

My feeling is the regs need addressing and soon.

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Couldn't agree more. It's all very well that cars fitted with Xenon/LED lights need self-levelling systems and the like, but that only keeps them adjusted correctly for flat pieces of road. Approach a modern car (or even worse, monster SUV with the very latest LED lighting) along a road with small crests and humps and it is inevitable that their lights will NOT automatically adjust down to prevent blinding - it happens all the time. This is demonstrably dangerous and I personally think something has to be done to manage this issue, although I suspect the only route is via the supposedly 'intelligent' lighting that somehow 'knows' where not to send light with oncoming vehicle approaching.

Driving or auxiliary lights make much more sense, as they can be wired to main beam only and therefore are of use precisely when you need them and where they won't impact other drivers. Travel to Scandinavia (and Finland in my particular experience) and nearly everyone mounts additional Xenon or LED driving lights on their cars to help light up the roads over their long, dark nights. They share roads with some very big animals after dark and they take lighting seriously. Easy solution and might help keep the current headlamp power race under more control....

I've come late to this as I've been in the USA. The Philips LED replacements are illegal for road use and it's poor (and possibly illegal in the UK) of them not to make this clear. The only clue they give is on the specifications page
https://www.philips.com.sg/c-p/12953BWX2/x-treme-ultinon-led-car-headlight-bulb/specifications
which says "Homologation ECE NO " Not very clear to the average punter.
Makes me wonder about some of the other Philips lamps.


Currently there are no LED replacements for exterior filament lamps (bulbs, not complete fittings) that are legal for road use in the UK or EU.


Robert G8RPI.

R1NGA said:

Couldn't agree more. It's all very well that cars fitted with Xenon/LED lights need self-levelling systems and the like, but that only keeps them adjusted correctly for flat pieces of road. Approach a modern car (or even worse, monster SUV with the very latest LED lighting) along a road with small crests and humps and it is inevitable that their lights will NOT automatically adjust down to prevent blinding ....

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Sorry, but that's not the way they work – they are not 'adaptive while driving'... the adjustment happens when the key is turned on and sets the lights according to the load in the car before it moves off (based on sensors on the suspension, so it still works even if the car was parked on a hill). This sets the lights to the correct angle relative to the weight distributed in the car. (In the same way that with our Panda's we are supposed to alter the angle using the buttons on the dash if we have a full load in the boot, or passengers in the back... which of course we all do, don't we??, so that we too don't cause dazzle with lights set too high when the boot is full).

Herts Hillhopper said:

Sorry, but that's not the way they work – they are not 'adaptive while driving'... the adjustment happens when the key is turned on and sets the lights according to the load in the car before it moves off (based on sensors on the suspension, so it still works even if the car was parked on a hill). This sets the lights to the correct angle relative to the weight distributed in the car. (In the same way that with our Panda's we are supposed to alter the angle using the buttons on the dash if we have a full load in the boot, or passengers in the back... which of course we all do, don't we??, so that we too don't cause dazzle with lights set too high when the boot is full).

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Thanks for the clarification Pete, but that exactly proves my point that hyper-bright LEDs (and laser lights, as fitted for example to the BMW I8) simply WILL blind other drivers at some point or another. Audi have what they call an 'intelligent' LED config where it shuts down certain areas of light when it 'knows' another driver is approaching. Reports from owners with this system say they're forever getting flashed by blinded oncoming drivers, so that system clearly doesn't work either. Halogen bulbs continue to rule the day for overall safety I suspect.

Why not just purchase LED driving lights and wire them on the main beam?

I get thoroughly p*ssed off at being dazzled, from the front and the rear, by cars with LED headlights every time they go over the tiniest undulation in the road. Cars with standard-fit LED headlights are bad enough, but modified cars are even worse. Personally, I'd support a lengthy driving ban for anyone selfish enough to inflict this on other road-users (a slight over-reaction, perhaps, but it's been a trying day, and I'm feeling more than usually grumpy).

Wrangler said:

Why not just purchase LED driving lights and wire them on the main beam?

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Not a good idea because 90% of driving is on dip so there is little point. Oncoming traffic is the issue and blinding other road users on purpose is an offence and plain stupid.

murphyv310 said:

Not a good idea because 90% of driving is on dip so there is little point. Oncoming traffic is the issue and blinding other road users on purpose is an offence and plain stupid.

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Not a good idea? Driving lights are designed for using with main beam only and far better idea than replacing the standard headlight bulbs with LEDs which can blind other users ON dipped.

Dipped beam is always going to be a compromise for what you see in front of you, oncoming traffic blinding you has nothing to do with what you can do, which is forget about replacing bulbs with LEDs, accept that whilst on dipped your limited and possibly add some driving lights for main beam purposes. If 90% of driving is done on dipped, why bother with having main beams at all?

If you live and do most of your driving in the sticks, as i do, then I’m on main beam more than dipped, I tend to drive with the fog lights on because its all soft verges up here and it’s good to see where they are....they can be difficult, never mind the abundance of wild life from otters, badgers to deer.
I know people get vexed with drivers using front fogs constantly moaning about blinding oncoming vehicles, but I cannot see the problem they never bother me in the same way that Xenon or LED do, and since they project the light low and to the sides i dont see the issue.

I can possibly see that wiring long range lamps into the main beams would be an idea if you live in a sparsely populated area. Ultra bright additional LED,s on main beam though could be a hazard too for a cyclist or a walker, it's that you are less likely to see them even with powerful lights, they get blinded and swerve or trip on something and the consequences could be devastating.
Look at it this way, you are driving in a fairly straight road with a bend coming up, there is another car heading round the bend, you see the lights shining so you are ready to dip. Conversely no car coming and you keep on full beam as you think there is no need to dip, you have good visibility but as soon as you enter the bend there is that silly person walking or a bike. Now the scenario is you are putting out your normal light from the Halogen head lights plus high output LED with their piercing light, on foot or on a bike you have no chance, don't forget the time it takes to recover your sight from being blinded. Ok so the example is possibly a bit extreme but overly bright lights are as much as a hazard as inadequate lights.
I'm sure this has all to be addressed by tighter regulations on new vehicles and stricter lighting checks at the time of the MOT.
It's bad enough getting blinded by SUV types on dip but getting a second or so by someone slow at dipping with additional LED long range lights on main beam is a definite no no.

My Panda is only a few months old. Went out the other day at night and had to ask my daughter if the lights were actually on........ Full beam is Ok but dip is rather dim. Quite how these lights are deemed road legal escapes me. I suppose its the same clowns approving lights that supervise exhaust emissions equipment and its efficacy.

Hi.
Don't forget H4 were a big improvement over the European 40/45 watt non halogen bulbs and also had a better cut off than sealed beams. They have outlived their usefulness now and Fiat and others who still use H4 need a better solution. I have to say the 130% night breakers are good.

Bright, powerful LED driving lights wired to main beam all the way for me. I always dip for any other road users - those walking, cycling as well as driving - and have never had or perceived to have had a problem. In the sticks it's vital to be able to see clearly at night, which is precisely where the LED/Main beam thing works. We just have to live with the weak performance of the stock halogen lights on dipped, but that's in town or around other cars, so it matters far less.

Just my view!

R1NGA said:

Bright, powerful LED driving lights wired to main beam all the way for me. I always dip for any other road users - those walking, cycling as well as driving - and have never had or perceived to have had a problem. In the sticks it's vital to be able to see clearly at night, which is precisely where the LED/Main beam thing works. We just have to live with the weak performance of the stock halogen lights on dipped, but that's in town or around other cars, so it matters far less.

Just my view!

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Out of interest, if you fitted driving spots, where did you get'em fitted?

Wrangler said:

Out of interest, if you fitted driving spots, where did you get'em fitted?

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Did it myself - simple enough. Mine are small, compact 2" numbers that I have set into the bumper. Just needed a 50mm hole-saw and in truth they are an interference fit, such is their design. Wired into the main-beam circuit with a relay, although the current draw is so small that I doubt it really needed that bit. Lovely and bright and well worth the effort to allow me to spot dear and badgers in the distance on those dark country lanes.

Tried these from Bang good in the lassies MG3. They work well.

Hi.
I have tried one in the Panda this afternoon. They are bright but in the Panda the beam pattern is pretty awful, a lot sharper in the MG3 to be fair. In fact the the standard H4 in the MG3 is better than the 130% Night Breakers in the Panda!!
I have swapped the Night Breakers into the MG3 and my daughter prefers them to the OE bulbs and the LED ones so I will try the LED ones over the weekend in the Panda and see how they look and if they dazzle. Any issues and they will be out and I'll just get another 130% Night breakers for my self.
I'll post up some pictures of the beam pattern over the weekend.