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Old 17-01-2019   #31
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Re: Supermarket fuel

Quote Originally Posted by Schumi2001 View Post
(I typed that response after a night of overnight health & safety visits which came after working all day... and I've just noticed I made a right mess of some of the spelling and grammar!)

To answer some questions - yes, it's standard practice to use a silicone based cleaner on tankers. Due diligence means it should all be removed when rinsing, but it would appear some retailers put their logistics under a huge amount of pressure and corners have, in the past, been cut. Haven't heard of it for a few years now, though.

I'm really, really wary of fuel additives - none of them get the kind of money and research thrown at them as the additives put in the fuels by the big oil companies. At best, they do very little, at worst, they could react with the additives in the fuel and negate the benefits / produce undesirable benefits.

As for oils - this is a big area of research these days - we sell a GTL (gas to liquid) oil (Helix Ultra) which is specifically formulated to prevent and clean carbon buildup. It's a big challenge, as you used to be able to rely on fuel additives to clean these up!

Just to answer the point over 'stale' fuel - it's a myth. Nobody wants to be sitting on £30k of fuel in the ground, so everyone only orders what they can sell within a week or so of delivery. At worst, you may find fuel that is a month old - but in the UK it could have been sitting on a sea tanker for longer than that anyway! (We have to import a lot of refined stock as we no longer have self sufficiency in our refinery capacity)
Thanks a bunch for that. Yes the things you say about additives worries me too, but, in ignorance, it's difficult to be certain about what's best to do? I do wonder if running your "standard" fuels would be better than a supermarket branded item? There is one of your stations near me on the dock road down in Leith and his prices are quite competitive. Would have to talk Mrs J through the withdrawal symptoms with her loyalty card though!

I take your point about having money sitting in the ground. The small family garage I worked in for many years had it's own pumps and the boss used to moan for days when the tanker came to top us up. He even once used it as an excuse for not paying us any bonus that week!
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Old 18-01-2019   #32
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Re: Supermarket fuel

That's a company owned and operated site, so I'd be surprised if it wasn't very competitive (ie. only a penny or two above local supermarkets) on price.

I work with independents, rather than on the company owned business, so don't know what the current pricing strategy looks like!
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Old 18-01-2019   #33
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Re: Supermarket fuel

Quote Originally Posted by Schumi2001 View Post
... (I work for the ones with a logo you could find on a beach)
Driftwood, plastic bottles, lager cans, single flip-flops, doggy-doo, seaweed.
Never seen any of those on a forecourt sign.

Can anyone design a logo incorporating any or all of these, like a coat of arms?
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Old 18-01-2019   #34
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Re: Supermarket fuel

Quote Originally Posted by Schumi2001 View Post
That's a company owned and operated site, so I'd be surprised if it wasn't very competitive (ie. only a penny or two above local supermarkets) on price.

I work with independents, rather than on the company owned business, so don't know what the current pricing strategy looks like!
Thanks Schumi. I go past it every time I go out to pick up my grand daughter (round the bypass and out to Newtongrange). Been driving past it for many, many years and never went in. Going out there today so will take the opportunity to try convincing Mrs J that we should try some.

Although I suspect there would be little benefit running wee Becky (our 2010 Panda Dynamic Eco) on your standard offering, I think Twink (2016 3 cyl 1.0 turbo petrol) might well benefit from your premium product. In particular because her management system may well be able to fully utilise it to good effect but also I believe turbo petrol engines are particularly prone to detonation/pinking problems which the higher octane fuel may better control?

At present I consistently see just a smidgeon under 60MPG on our jaunts down to Devon and back - measured full tank to full tank, not on the dash figure. (I used to see similar figures out of the old 1.9 tdi Cordoba so I am very pleased). If the "Super doopa" Shell gave me even a small increase in mileage then I would be well satisfied. I am resolved to try it next time, both there and back - to give it a fair trial. Where would be the nearest refueling station to Marwood? That's south east of Barnstaple along those frighteningly narrow country lanes!
Regards
Jock
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Old 18-01-2019   #35
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Re: Supermarket fuel

Closest in that neck of the woods will be Crediton or Oakhampton, I'm afraid!

We are working on it, though!

Small capacity turbos definitely benefit from higher octane fuels - my mother in law runs a Ford Fiesta with the 125bhp Ecoboost. Her Ford dealer has specifically told her to use VPower, even though we don't have a fuels partnership with Ford!

This obviously was great news to me.

To be honest, I run everything on VPower (or, if I can't find it, Tesco Momentum 99) - maybe I'm wasting my money, but I have faith in the product, even when it's being paid for on my own account rather than with the fuel card.
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Old 18-01-2019   #36
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Re: Supermarket fuel

Quote Originally Posted by Schumi2001 View Post
Closest in that neck of the woods will be Crediton or Oakhampton, I'm afraid!

We are working on it, though!

Small capacity turbos definitely benefit from higher octane fuels - my mother in law runs a Ford Fiesta with the 125bhp Ecoboost. Her Ford dealer has specifically told her to use VPower, even though we don't have a fuels partnership with Ford!

This obviously was great news to me.

To be honest, I run everything on VPower (or, if I can't find it, Tesco Momentum 99) - maybe I'm wasting my money, but I have faith in the product, even when it's being paid for on my own account rather than with the fuel card.
Thanks Schumi. Tesco Momentum 99, is that your fuel? if not would the Morrisons premium brand be as good (don't have a Tesco with fuel near us) or even Asda, there's one of those a wee drive away.
Regards Jock
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Old 18-01-2019   #37
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Re: Supermarket fuel

Momentum 99 isn't ours. However, it's the only other widely-available 99 octane fuel in the UK.

(A small number of Essar and Costco sites also have it).

All other 'super' unleaded from Texaco, BP, Esso etc., is 97 octane.

Momentum doesn't (obviously) have our F1 derived additives, but if you're interested in minimising the risk of pinking and getting a little extra out of a boosted engine, or any engine with knock sensor, then it's a perfectly decent alternative where you can't get VPower.
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Old 18-01-2019   #38
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Re: Supermarket fuel

OK decision made. We went down to Peebles today. The weather was lovely but very chilly with white frost on the fields - very pretty. It was a lovely day out and we both enjoyed ourselves.

On the way back I mentioned that I fancied trying the V Power in Twink on our next trip down to Devon and, much to my surprise, "Her Indoors" was actually quite enthusiastic! Bearing in mind that the previous MPG I've recorded (6 trips) have all been on the Morrisons standard cheapo fuel and have all come out at between 58 and 61 MPG door to door (except one where the weather was foul and we got involved in a humongous diversion due to an accident on the M6 - still got just over 50 though). Would it be realistic to expect to see an improvement on the 60 MPG figure - given all other factors unchanged. Personally I'm not quite so interested in the MPG and much more interested in the benefits to the engine. Mrs J would be very impressed by an increase in economy and, of course I could then argue that the actual increase in cost is not as great as would seem.
regards Jock
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Old 18-01-2019   #39
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Re: Supermarket fuel

Can't guarantee better economy! - it's so difficult to properly measure, too.

However, the theory is that a modern engine can advance the timing to take advantage of higher octane fuel.

This means you'll either drive everywhere faster on the same throttle loading, or you'll use a smaller throttle loading and get better economy.

With diesel, we have a very loyal following of taxi drivers as they do lots of short runs and struggle to trigger DPF regions - VPower apparently does make a big difference to them.
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Old 18-01-2019   #40
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Re: Supermarket fuel

This is a subject that Iím very interested in. Iíve always tried to use Shell V-Power derv in all our oil burners. I really can tell a difference in this GTL fuel over normal grades. Our Honda CR-V 2.2 seems smoother and there isnít any black smoke out of the exhaust. The Panda 💯hp has a tank full of Shell V-Power petrol waiting to be used, but sheís a garage queen until the warmer months.

Iíve used a many different fuel additives, the only ones that seem to work in diesels are BG244 and Archoil products. Iíve used the Wynnís formula Gold for both petrol and diesel that make the engine sound smoother and more refined to my ear.
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Old 19-01-2019   #41
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Re: Supermarket fuel

Quote Originally Posted by Schumi2001 View Post

However, the theory is that a modern engine can advance the timing to take advantage of higher octane fuel.
Only true if compression is high enough to start selfcombusting (pinging) on 95. If compression is low enough for 95 there's no advantage in using 97 (or 98 or even 102.

gr J
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Old 19-01-2019   #42
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Re: Supermarket fuel

Quote Originally Posted by A3jeroen View Post
Only true if compression is high enough to start selfcombusting (pinging) on 95. If compression is low enough for 95 there's no advantage in using 97 (or 98 or even 102.

gr J
Not sure that's 100% the case - you can advance timing to introduce knock on lower compression engines, too - if you recall the phasing out of 4* leaded fuel, the 'fix' for lead replacement fuel was to retard the timing on the distributor.

If a car has a knock sensor and the ECU allows it, you can advance the timing until you get knock, then bring it back until it goes away.

Our Toyota V6 has knock sensors on both cylinder banks and is much happier on super grades.
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Old 19-01-2019   #43
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Re: Supermarket fuel

Look on youtube for the 5th gear test.

gr J
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Old 19-01-2019   #44
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Re: Supermarket fuel

Quote Originally Posted by A3jeroen View Post
Only true if compression is high enough to start selfcombusting (pinging) on 95. If compression is low enough for 95 there's no advantage in using 97 (or 98 or even 102.

gr J
Good point for normally aspirated perhaps? But chuck a turbo (or supercharger) into the mix and the parameters are rather changed? - especially when it really gets on boost. I got quite involved with "bolt on" (Shorrock) superchargers back in the '60's/early '70's. It was quite usual to fit 2 head gaskets or (more reliably) a steel spacer to lower the standard compression ratio as the compressed air charge would increase compression pressures to such an extent detonation was almost garanteed!

I too remember retarding timing on BL "A" and "B" series engines to allow them to run without pinking - it made something like an MGB rather sluggish but at least they ran. Until the exhaust valves and seats burnt anyway!
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Old 02-03-2019   #45
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Re: Supermarket fuel

Back to Shell V Power last night. Yikes it goes, and that's despite the weight of a full tank. Asda 95 Unleaded doesn't appear to be any different to start with, but in 2nd at 10mph you get a clunk trying to get it to pick up. Which is first thing that returns. 30-50 through 2nd and 3rd gets slower by noticeable amount too. Also 3rd at 20mph there's a throttle delay. Had to put back in 2nd. Car great fun with V Power, rubbish otherwise.
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