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Old 16-12-2014   #1
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Question New Panda Trekking traction plus

I have ordered a new Trekking . I ordered it mainly because of the traction plus feature but now that all new Panda,s come with ESP which incorporates ASR I wonder if traction plus is any different to ASR they both seem to work in the same way by applying brake to the slipping wheel.?
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Last edited by JAB0; 16-12-2014 at 13:17.
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Old 17-12-2014   #2
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Re: New Panda Trekking traction plus

Certainly I would think those are very similar features.

Main difference will be the styling / ride hight over standard model
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Old 18-12-2014   #3
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Re: New Panda Trekking traction plus

I'm sure I read that the traction plus system is active up to 18mph and is sending power to the wheel with most grip and braking the other. Whereas the esp/asr is more for higher speeds and antilock/skid braking and stability control.

Oh and we get a nice button to press on the dash too

I ordered a trekking too as I didn't like the six speed gear box in the 4x4 but loved the driving position and ride height over the standard panda.

As long as the traction plus stops me wheel spinning out of junctions and at lights I will be more than happy with it
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Old 18-12-2014   #4
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Re: New Panda Trekking traction plus

Quote Originally Posted by panda panda View Post
I'm sure I read that the traction plus system is active up to 18mph and is sending power to the wheel with most grip and braking the other. Whereas the esp/asr is more for higher speeds and antilock/skid braking and stability control.

Oh and we get a nice button to press on the dash too

I ordered a trekking too as I didn't like the six speed gear box in the 4x4 but loved the driving position and ride height over the standard panda.

As long as the traction plus stops me wheel spinning out of junctions and at lights I will be more than happy with it
Exactly that - ESP/ASR controls vehicle stability at higher speeds when it identifies conditions that suggest potential instability from various sensors. ASR is associated and helps prevent skids, slides and the sort of things we find fun in small cars - shame it can't be turned off, which was always a problem for enthusiasts in the 169-model 100HP on cars with it fitted.

Traction+ does just as described above, by braking a spinning wheel to maintain traction and minimise wheelspin. So it all links together, but T+ should help prevent nasty wheelspin when giving it large out of a slippery junction (or muddy carpark etc).
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Old 19-12-2014   #5
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Re: New Panda Trekking traction plus

Traction+ and the ELD (on a 4x4) can be a bit slow and dimwitted, but it can help with loss of traction if used carefully and you work with it rather than pushing the button and hoping!

Basically, the car needs an open differential as when you corner one wheel needs to travel further than the other on the same axle.

This is great in a car park or out on the open road, but as soon as one wheel losses traction due to slippage, the other on that axle will not power as the open diff will not send power it, so you stop dead when one wheel losses traction.

What ELD (all four wheels) and Traction+ (front 2 wheels) does is use the ESP and ABS systems to brake the wheel that has lost traction and is slipping on that axle, braking this wheel causes the diff to power the other wheel on that axle which would otherwise not get powered due to the open diff arrangement.

It's very similar to ESP, but works tighter (not as much slip before it kicks in) and because of this, at a lower speed.

Now you can start to see some drawbacks, which is when all wheels on that axle lose traction
(not so much a problem with 4x4 as there are 4 chances of one wheel gripping)
It starts working and starts braking the slipping wheel, but you can start to lose momentum due to this and grind to a halt or sink and dig in as the cars weight overcome the momentum, so it's best to still be gentle with the throttle.

It needs to detect slip to work, which is a little counter productive, in slippy conditions to really do need to avoid this if possible, again it can effect momentum, slowing you up and on inclinces you don't want the car's weight to overtake momentum.

Another drawback is using the system when the wheels are unlikely to slip (ie on tarmac)
This can stain the transmission as it fights the wheels that naturally need to slip when cornering.
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Last edited by Goudrons; 19-12-2014 at 09:04.
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Old 20-12-2014   #6
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Re: New Panda Trekking traction plus

My quborino has traction+ but never used it! So I am no help! Lol
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Old 03-01-2015   #7
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Quote Originally Posted by Goudrons View Post
Traction+ and the ELD (on a 4x4) can be a bit slow and dimwitted, but it can help with loss of traction if used carefully and you work with it rather than pushing the button and hoping!

Basically, the car needs an open differential as when you corner one wheel needs to travel further than the other on the same axle.

This is great in a car park or out on the open road, but as soon as one wheel losses traction due to slippage, the other on that axle will not power as the open diff will not send power it, so you stop dead when one wheel losses traction.

What ELD (all four wheels) and Traction+ (front 2 wheels) does is use the ESP and ABS systems to brake the wheel that has lost traction and is slipping on that axle, braking this wheel causes the diff to power the other wheel on that axle which would otherwise not get powered due to the open diff arrangement.

It's very similar to ESP, but works tighter (not as much slip before it kicks in) and because of this, at a lower speed.

Now you can start to see some drawbacks, which is when all wheels on that axle lose traction
(not so much a problem with 4x4 as there are 4 chances of one wheel gripping)
It starts working and starts braking the slipping wheel, but you can start to lose momentum due to this and grind to a halt or sink and dig in as the cars weight overcome the momentum, so it's best to still be gentle with the throttle.

It needs to detect slip to work, which is a little counter productive, in slippy conditions to really do need to avoid this if possible, again it can effect momentum, slowing you up and on inclinces you don't want the car's weight to overtake momentum.

Another drawback is using the system when the wheels are unlikely to slip (ie on tarmac)
This can stain the transmission as it fights the wheels that naturally need to slip when cornering.
Hi there

I don't suppose you could try and explain this again could you please, but perhaps in a different way?

Also, does it work when reversing? I was stuck with 2 front wheels on the wet muddy grass in my Trekking this morning. The Traction didn't seem to help at all. It was pretty flat and I was only on a few feet. I had to get 3 guys to push me.

Cheers

Jas
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Old 03-01-2015   #8
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Re: New Panda Trekking traction plus

Quote Originally Posted by jasfiona View Post
Hi there

I don't suppose you could try and explain this again could you please, but perhaps in a different way?

Also, does it work when reversing? I was stuck with 2 front wheels on the wet muddy grass in my Trekking this morning. The Traction didn't seem to help at all. It was pretty flat and I was only on a few feet. I had to get 3 guys to push me.

Cheers

Jas
Sounds like the drawback set out in para 6 above. Both wheels on one axle slipping = goes nowhere. If it was the 4wd the rears would have got grip. It would work in reverse but if you've got both front wheels stuck there's nothing else it can do. I hardly ever need 4wd in my old mk2 Sisley (deep snow or proper off-roading only) but when I do there's no way 2wd with any number of clever tricks will work.

Fwiw I thought that was an excellent explanation & not too technical. It can't be, as I don't follow technical! Try reading it one bit at a time @Goudrons did a good job of something quite complicated.
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Old 04-01-2015   #9
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Re: New Panda Trekking traction plus

I'll try!
To drive on open roads around corners, the cars wheels need to be able to turn at different rates.
Image turning to the left in a tight circle or arc, the inside wheels (left) only need to rotate once, but the outside (right) need to turn four or five times to keep up as they have a greater distance to cover in the arc.
For the car to do this, the diff is open or infinite slip diff. (some sports cars have limited slip diffs to help corner under power, but they both act similar when in mud)

It works by magic (or maybe I'm not clever enough to explain) but what it means is if one wheel is unloaded (or slips) the diff will not send power to the other wheel on that axle, it just sits there dead.

On slippy surfaces this open diff is a problem because as soon as one wheel spins in the mud, the other has no chance of powering the car as the diff will not send power to it.
One wheel will just spin away like mad, the other will do feck all!

To get around this problem and HELP with grip, some way of locking the diff is needed, so it doesn't matter if one wheel slips, the other will still get power and perhaps have a chance of finding some grip and moving the car forward.

Obviously you can't run a locked diff on roads with plenty of grip as things like half shafts snap at the first corner you try driving around. (I've tried it in an old Disco!)

Old 4x4 used big heavy metal cogs in separate gearboxes or hydraulics to force the diff to lock together the two half shafts on that axle and connecting both wheels/half shafts together (and perhaps lock the front axle's rotation to the rear as well so all four wheels are locked together)

Traction + and ELD doesn't use these heavy parts, but use the on board electronics like ABS and ESP so the braking system loosely simulates a locked diff.
The diff is a traditional open diff (with the same shortfalls explained above) but it detects a slipping wheel via the ABS wheel speed sensor and applies that wheels brake, thus sending power to the wheel on the other axle.

What you must remember is if the diff is powering one, two, three or four wheels doesn't mean any will grip the ground, but the more being powered, the more chance!
Using the brakes on a slipping wheel only helps if the other wheel(s) grip, but grip or not, it will mean the engine power will find it's way to the other wheel on that axle where before it wouldn't.

Spin both (or all four with a 4x4) and it's not going to work, it can't brake both (or all 4) and hope to regain grip.
It's not just this system, but the old style physical diff locks would also suffer the same, spinning all wheels in the mud isn't going to get you moving forward.

The same can be said about ABS (and was in another recent post)
The wheel speed sensors detect each wheels speed, if one, two or three rotate slower, it quickly releases and re applies them until they start rotating at the same speed.
Slam the brakes on hard on a slippy surface (ice or snow) and lock all four up at the same time and the ABS system is useless, how can it work? It cannot detect a difference of rotation speed at any wheel, it presumes you're stopped so you slide and crash!

Best way to try and get the car moving on slippy surfaces even with ELD, Traction + or any other device is to lift the clutch gently without any throttle pedal.
Just put it in first, release the hand brake and lift the clutch very gently.

The ECU will automatically add enough rpm to prevent a stall and you will creep forward, hopefully without the wheel spin.
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Last edited by Goudrons; 04-01-2015 at 22:52.
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Old 05-01-2015   #10
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Re: New Panda Trekking traction plus

My understanding is that it is not magic (honest) but fluid in the diffs getting compressed?
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Old 05-01-2015   #11
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Re: New Panda Trekking traction plus

A fairly good explanation of a modern diff!

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Old 13-01-2015   #12
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Re: New Panda Trekking traction plus

Quote Originally Posted by Aikidoamigo View Post
My understanding is that it is not magic (honest) but fluid in the diffs getting compressed?
That's only for a viscous coupling, which is the type of device used in the 169-model Panda 4x4 to connect the rear axle to the propshaft, meaning that it only comes into play when the front wheels are slipping.

However differentials and their control is a very complex science and I'd strongly recommend we don't try to get too deep in this thread, as we will be here all year for sure.....

Bottom line is that ELD in the 4x4 and Traction+ in the Trekking just uses the brakes in a clever way to help things along. But the laws of physics will always win and those are logical and easy to understand (ie: both front wheels in the mud on a 2WD car won't be going anywhere, regardless of what electrical trickery the car has...)!
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Old 13-01-2015   #13
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Re: New Panda Trekking traction plus

Quote Originally Posted by Goudrons View Post
A fairly good explanation of a modern diff!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=yYAw79386WI
Err, that's brilliant by the way - excellent find!
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Old 20-01-2015   #14
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Re: New Panda Trekking traction plus

good explanations there.

I have found in my 4x4 that in certain slippery fields etc that the 4x4 system can be too conservative with the power. There are certain situations when a load of power, and the included wheelspin can be better then the slowly slowly approach.
Personally I wish they'd kept the viscous coupling of the old model, but understand it is impossible in these days of compulsory esp.
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Old 20-01-2015   #15
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Re: New Panda Trekking traction plus

Quote Originally Posted by deeyup View Post
good explanations there.

I have found in my 4x4 that in certain slippery fields etc that the 4x4 system can be too conservative with the power. There are certain situations when a load of power, and the included wheelspin can be better then the slowly slowly approach.
Personally I wish they'd kept the viscous coupling of the old model, but understand it is impossible in these days of compulsory esp.
Completely agree deeyup. Best setup would be viscous centre and also another in the rear diff, with the clever electronics just working the 'fiddle brakes' facility.
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