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Old 20-01-2015   #16
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Re: New Panda Trekking traction plus

In the 4x4 the ELD button instigates 3 actions.

1. The 'faux' locking diffs using the brakes on the spinning wheel as discussed above.
2. Activation of the centre clutch giving permanent 4 wheel drive without waiting for wheel spin. Hence the speed limitation of 31mph to avoid serious wind up.
3. Inhibition of the ASR (Anti Slip Regulation) function so that full torque is available and you can spin the wheels to your hearts content without engine power reducing.
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Old 20-01-2015   #17
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Re: New Panda Trekking traction plus

Quote Originally Posted by R1NGA View Post
Completely agree deeyup. Best setup would be viscous centre and also another in the rear diff, with the clever electronics just working the 'fiddle brakes' facility.
That would be perfect!
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Old 20-01-2015   #18
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Re: New Panda Trekking traction plus

Quote Originally Posted by Inclinefoot View Post
In the 4x4 the ELD button instigates 3 actions.

1. The 'faux' locking diffs using the brakes on the spinning wheel as discussed above.
2. Activation of the centre clutch giving permanent 4 wheel drive without waiting for wheel spin. Hence the speed limitation of 31mph to avoid serious wind up.
3. Inhibition of the ASR (Anti Slip Regulation) function so that full torque is available and you can spin the wheels to your hearts content without engine power reducing.
A qualification on #2 above however is that it will actually only lock fully when spin is detected - the ELD button merely 'primes' this locking to make it happen more quickly. I have a large gravel drive and when manoeuvring on full lock there is certainly no fully locked action taking place at that point, as gravel makes it very easy to identify. This was very evident however on my old Discovery when the centre diff was manually locked. Not taking anything away from Fiat, and in fact #3 makes me very happy indeed and the system clearly works very well.
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Old 20-01-2015   #19
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Re: New Panda Trekking traction plus

Yes I read the primed statement somewhere but the quote in the 4x4 supplement to the handbook states 'permanent four-wheel drive, so that the vehicle is more responsive'.

It also warns 'IMPORTANT With ELD function activated, since activation of 4x4 drive is available, a braking effect may be detected when driving in tight curves at a low speed and/or when parking, due to the difference of speed between the front and rear wheels of the car. To avoid this effect, activate the ELD mode only when necessary.'

Given your evidence I'm more inclined to believe the primed for early activation theory.
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Old 20-01-2015   #20
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Re: New Panda Trekking traction plus

Interesting. All we need is some naffin' snow down here in the overheated South and we'd be able to check for sure!
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Old 20-01-2015   #21
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Re: New Panda Trekking traction plus

Quote Originally Posted by Inclinefoot View Post
In the 4x4 the ELD button instigates 3 actions.

1. The 'faux' locking diffs using the brakes on the spinning wheel as discussed above.
2. Activation of the centre clutch giving permanent 4 wheel drive without waiting for wheel spin. Hence the speed limitation of 31mph to avoid serious wind up.
3. Inhibition of the ASR (Anti Slip Regulation) function so that full torque is available and you can spin the wheels to your hearts content without engine power reducing.
In my experience, number 3 doesn't work. I've been on a soggy field with my foot flat to the floor in 1st with barely 1500 rpm.
I'm sure there's a video posted on here of one of our Norwegian members doing his best to get the car to spin in the snow, but the asr was spoiling the fun. I'll try and find it.


EDIT:

found it, he is revving the nuts off it! I must be wrong? All I know is, on that field, my car would not rev out.

EDIT AGAIN:
I just read @Strada from Norway following post after the video,
Here is the cut
I was playing a bit with the ELD, and with the ELD off the stabilitysystem intervenes quickly any attempt at having fun. No chance of any wheelspinor sideways. However, with the ELD on (ie the button has a green light), thingsimprove. It is possible at low speeds (2nd gear) to drift sideways for all daylong provided you dont floor it completely, but keep the throttle at say under70-80% and keep the steering input at a minimum. The system seems to detect anunstable car with sideways wobbling or lots of steering wheel work and will consequentlystrangle the power. At higher speeds than 50ish kmt it also seem to intervene.Anyway, just started the winter season and will need more testing!
CLICK HERE
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Old 20-01-2015   #22
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Re: New Panda Trekking traction plus

From that I would infer that possibly the ELD simply blunts the ASR function rather than completely inhibits it. It would also seem that it will makes more effort to say tame understeer but isn't too bothered about wheelspin in a straight line. As someone said earlier its a complex system with a lot of interaction. There'll be some sort of algorithm to make sense of it, no doubt with some fuzzy logic built in.
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Old 20-01-2015   #23
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Re: New Panda Trekking traction plus

Quote Originally Posted by Goudrons View Post
I'll try!
To drive on open roads around corners, the cars wheels need to be able to turn at different rates.
Image turning to the left in a tight circle or arc, the inside wheels (left) only need to rotate once, but the outside (right) need to turn four or five times to keep up as they have a greater distance to cover in the arc.
For the car to do this, the diff is open or infinite slip diff. (some sports cars have limited slip diffs to help corner under power, but they both act similar when in mud)

It works by magic (or maybe I'm not clever enough to explain) but what it means is if one wheel is unloaded (or slips) the diff will not send power to the other wheel on that axle, it just sits there dead.

On slippy surfaces this open diff is a problem because as soon as one wheel spins in the mud, the other has no chance of powering the car as the diff will not send power to it.
One wheel will just spin away like mad, the other will do feck all!

To get around this problem and HELP with grip, some way of locking the diff is needed, so it doesn't matter if one wheel slips, the other will still get power and perhaps have a chance of finding some grip and moving the car forward.

Obviously you can't run a locked diff on roads with plenty of grip as things like half shafts snap at the first corner you try driving around. (I've tried it in an old Disco!)

Old 4x4 used big heavy metal cogs in separate gearboxes or hydraulics to force the diff to lock together the two half shafts on that axle and connecting both wheels/half shafts together (and perhaps lock the front axle's rotation to the rear as well so all four wheels are locked together)

Traction + and ELD doesn't use these heavy parts, but use the on board electronics like ABS and ESP so the braking system loosely simulates a locked diff.
The diff is a traditional open diff (with the same shortfalls explained above) but it detects a slipping wheel via the ABS wheel speed sensor and applies that wheels brake, thus sending power to the wheel on the other axle.

What you must remember is if the diff is powering one, two, three or four wheels doesn't mean any will grip the ground, but the more being powered, the more chance!
Using the brakes on a slipping wheel only helps if the other wheel(s) grip, but grip or not, it will mean the engine power will find it's way to the other wheel on that axle where before it wouldn't.

Spin both (or all four with a 4x4) and it's not going to work, it can't brake both (or all 4) and hope to regain grip.
It's not just this system, but the old style physical diff locks would also suffer the same, spinning all wheels in the mud isn't going to get you moving forward.

The same can be said about ABS (and was in another recent post)
The wheel speed sensors detect each wheels speed, if one, two or three rotate slower, it quickly releases and re applies them until they start rotating at the same speed.
Slam the brakes on hard on a slippy surface (ice or snow) and lock all four up at the same time and the ABS system is useless, how can it work? It cannot detect a difference of rotation speed at any wheel, it presumes you're stopped so you slide and crash!

Best way to try and get the car moving on slippy surfaces even with ELD, Traction + or any other device is to lift the clutch gently without any throttle pedal.
Just put it in first, release the hand brake and lift the clutch very gently.

The ECU will automatically add enough rpm to prevent a stall and you will creep forward, hopefully without the wheel spin.

thanks so much for your very good explanation but i would like to ask something

i have ordered a trek [felt i couldn't really justify the extra expense on a 4x4 for my needs] but i do want a car which is better in the snow [hence the trek] im not looking to be going up and down hills, but i do need a car to get me too and from work when it snows, on these days i drive very slowly ive skidded so many times over the years that im now geting rather scared

so will the trekking help me in this, its often the side roads that havent been gritted that are the problem, and im not talking bout thick snow but even slight layer....would the trek help????


thanks
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Old 20-01-2015   #24
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Re: New Panda Trekking traction plus

Yes mantababe, the Trekking will help you get around in the snow better than a 'normal' 2WD Panda, but most importantly MUCH better than other heavy, lardy cars on summer tyres - you should have little to worry about. What makes ALL Pandas so good in the snow is lack of weight and of course this applies to all small city cars. They get better if you fit winter tyres but add Traction+ with a Trekking AND the better tyres and you'll be laughing at all the School Run Ego Panzers as they slide off all around you. Don't even get me started on how those 2.7 tonne leviathons behave when they have to stop on snow and ice!

You've made a good choice!
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Old 20-01-2015   #25
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Re: New Panda Trekking traction plus

Quote Originally Posted by R1NGA View Post
Yes mantababe, the Trekking will help you get around in the snow better than a 'normal' 2WD Panda, but most importantly MUCH better than other heavy, lardy cars on summer tyres - you should have little to worry about. What makes ALL Pandas so good in the snow is lack of weight and of course this applies to all small city cars. They get better if you fit winter tyres but add Traction+ with a Trekking AND the better tyres and you'll be laughing at all the School Run Ego Panzers as they slide off all around you. Don't even get me started on how those 2.7 tonne leviathons behave when they have to stop on snow and ice!

You've made a good choice!
thanks so much for that. this is my first time of buying a fiat AND a brand new one, so nervous bout if ive made the right choice, youve reassured me. there was a very thin layer of snow [not sure you could even call it snow] this am and i was so scared driving in it
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Old 21-01-2015   #26
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Re: New Panda Trekking traction plus

Yeah, pretty much any light car with winter tyres is going to handle the dodgy winter side roads pretty well if driven with a bit of care.
I got around Saddleworth and the Pennines in some pretty bad conditions the last couple of years in our old Active with some budget Sava Eskimos on. Everyone guessed wrongly it was a 4x4.

It hasn't got to get a heavy weight moving or stopped or pulling it this way and that.

But you've got to remember, it might drive 4 wheels or uses clever electronics to shunt power around 2 or 4 wheels, but that doesn't guarantee it gripping the surface of the road.

Winter tyres do work well, but just becauce the engine drives all four wheels doesn't mean it'll stop on a sheet of ice when you slam the brakes on, stick it in a corner too fast or drive like a knob.
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Old 21-01-2015   #27
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Re: New Panda Trekking traction plus

Quote Originally Posted by Goudrons View Post
Yeah, pretty much any light car with winter tyres is going to handle the dodgy winter side roads pretty well if driven with a bit of care.
I got around Saddleworth and the Pennines in some pretty bad conditions the last couple of years in our old Active with some budget Sava Eskimos on. Everyone guessed wrongly it was a 4x4.

It hasn't got to get a heavy weight moving or stopped or pulling it this way and that.

But you've got to remember, it might drive 4 wheels or uses clever electronics to shunt power around 2 or 4 wheels, but that doesn't guarantee it gripping the surface of the road.

Winter tyres do work well, but just becauce the engine drives all four wheels doesn't mean it'll stop on a sheet of ice when you slam the brakes on, stick it in a corner too fast or drive like a knob.

thanks great info. will the traction help though in a light layer of snow or roads that look icy, in these conditions i do drive slowly [too slowly for other ppl likes, but ive had too many skids over the years] but even then when moving slow i have still felt the car wasnt stable and moved acrossed the road a bit...i currently drive a clia
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Old 21-01-2015   #28
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Re: New Panda Trekking traction plus

There are two elements to moving a car in slippy conditions.

1, Powering the wheels.
As already discussed, open diffs will spin up a unloaded wheel and bleed the other of rotation.
So yes, Traction+, ELD, locking diffs all help when one wheel starts to slips as described earlier in the thread.
They all, one way or another make sure the engine transmits power to the wheels.

2, Wheels gripping the road surface.
As already stated, you can power the wheels and limit slipping diffs all you want, but if the wheels can't grip the surface, you aren't going anywhere.
Same goes for steering and braking, if they don't grip, you can't do these either.

I presume the Trekking comes with the same tyres as the 4x4, WinterContacts.
These have thread "snipes" that magically help grip snow and ice.
They are also made out of rubber with a higher silica content which works better at lower temps.
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Old 21-01-2015   #29
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Re: New Panda Trekking traction plus

The Traction+ will help matters but as everyone else is trying to say the real deal are the winter tyres. For a few years I drove a front wheel drive car on a set of Michelin winter tyres. I was completely flabbergasted when I got to try them on snow and ice but so few people have experience of them they find it hard to believe what a difference they make. My wife got sick of me going on about them until I drove her round a large, snow covered, empty pub car park (no I hadn't been in!) then she understood.

I would suggest you drive just as you do now in slippy conditions until you develop some confidence in the car and tyres, you still need to be careful.

Don't believe me watch these videos.


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Old 21-01-2015   #30
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Re: New Panda Trekking traction plus

Quote Originally Posted by mantababe View Post
thanks great info. will the traction help though in a light layer of snow or roads that look icy, in these conditions i do drive slowly [too slowly for other ppl likes, but ive had too many skids over the years] but even then when moving slow i have still felt the car wasnt stable and moved acrossed the road a bit...i currently drive a clia
I hear what you're asking here and the bottom line is Yes, you have a very good car that is able to cope with slippery conditions much better than many others. But, the laws of physics will always win and you need to drive slowly, carefully and smoothly to promote the grip you need to get where you want to go. Gentle throttle, gentle steering and gentle braking are all required to make the drive a safe one. Being progressive, smooth and all those other soft, gentle words describe perfectly how you need to drive in ice and snow (or actually any situation in truth, but that's another discussion entirely).

Remember that trick with pulling a tablecloth out from under a load of plates, cups and saucers? Do it really fast, with a sudden snap, crack, pull and the cloth magically comes out without pulling the crockery onto the floor. Fast movement, no time for weight transfer, no 'grip' between porcelain and cloth and it works just as you've seen. Do that in a car on a slippery surface and your slide just the same....

But try the same trick with a gentle pull, you allow time for the weight to transfer, grip is maintained and you have a pile of broken china. Gentle = grip and that's what you want on the road. Simples!

Hope that makes sense. As said earlier, take it easy until you have confidence in both the car and your reactions to a gentle slip and you'll soon feel happy that you can handle the weather without coming out in a cold sweat!
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