Having set off for our home in Umbria on the 3rd of April we returned to Devon on 23rd June. This was the 4x4 TA’s second Italian trip and the little car acquitted itself well again. The total milage over the period was 5990 miles - including 2500 miles going to and from Spoleto - with the balance covered on greater than usual travelling around while in Italy. Overall mpg was just under 41, rising to 42.something while taking trips in Italy but being brought down again by motorway cruising at - or around - the legal limit going to and fro. Coming back we had 130 or so kilos of load, mostly wine and olive oil and equivalent to an adult and a youngish teenager, so the car was not overloaded but earning its keep. Air con was on for at least 80 percent of the time, either for cooling or for coping with extreme wet/misting conditions.

Motorway performance is the big differentiator between the MJ and the TA; the TA engine has such a flat torque curve that it cruises happily at any speed between just over 3000 revs - say 70mph - and about 4300 revs or so - say 90 mph (if allowed). A couple of dashes to Rome to do charity gigs could well have seen a constant 90 or so all the way without any obvious strain and with a small degree of acceleration in reserve (if you see what I mean). Main road hill climbing is impressive, with speed maintained comfortably up long Alpine inclines; while the 100HP - still missed for its handling and remembered with affection - would need to be doing something close to 5000 revs to really pull, requiring a change down, or two, the 4x4 just keeps tugging. Cruising in the 100HP always emphasised that its best rev band was so high that you’d be doing highly illegal speeds in sixth, the TA is more suited to give and take motorway conditions. The 4x4’s brakes inspire confidence under all conditions; the M&S tyres make some noise and their relatively high profile gives a fair degree of squidge but the general handling and driveability is fine. The car has done about 1400 miles in its first ten months and tyre wear is very moderate. There was some mention of oil consumption in recent posting; I had a precautionary oil change done after 5000 or so miles (not liking the idea of keeping running-in oil in the engine for the 18000 mile service interval); I did a level check before setting off in April, filling up to minutely above the full mark on the dipstick and the level doesn’t seem to have shifted in the 6000 miles since.

The 4x4 has really come into its own around the minor roads in Umbria. Our house, for instance, is over half a mile up a white (gravel) road; lack of maintenance and several bouts of torrential rain have taken their toll, with numerous areas down to bed rock and as many areas with two or three inches of loose gravel; there are some steep sections - 1 in 4 or so - where stopping for some reason - sheep and accompanying dogs, horses, people, wild boar, porcupines, hoopooes - in descending order of likelihood - would make re-starting tricky at best in the 100HP, the 4x4 coped with no issues. About 300 yards short of our house there’s a heavily eroded section where the 100HP simply couldn’t get past without loosing its exhaust but the 4x4 has no problems. A Trekking could obviously cope similarly with the ground clearance issue but I'd be interested to see how it would restart on a steep loose surface; it also lacks the six-speeed box of the 4x4.

All-in all the 4x4 TA is all I expected it to be - a straightforward, honest, small Fiat - and perhaps a little better than that. The new model Panda has certainly appeared in very large numbers in Italy, with a high proportion of 4x4s in the mountainous, country area of Umbria. My only, minor, negative comment is that I still don’t like its looks, I think it’s much less visually appealing than the previous model.

Should be 14000 miles so far, not 1400.

babbo_umbro said:

Should be 14000 miles so far, not 1400.

Click to expand...

I'd guessed.. ; - }


good to hear it's oil-tight too..!!,


the MPG is fine - although not brilliant - and comparable with the HP no doubt ( if memory serves - from last years trip)


how is the 70MPH+ audible comfort / against the 100HP, ?


my punto TA's "Roar" get's a bit tiring after an hour of so..!!


Charlie

varesecrazy said:

I'd guessed.. ; - }


good to hear it's oil-tight too..!!,


the MPG is fine - although not brilliant - and comparable with the HP no doubt ( if memory serves - from last years trip)


how is the 70MPH+ audible comfort / against the 100HP, ?


my punto TA's "Roar" get's a bit tiring after an hour of so..!!


Charlie

Click to expand...

Mpg very similar to the 100HP, perhaps a mile or two more per gallon overall, though more variable, where the 100HP was pretty constant. I always reckoned that the 100HP gave 39 overall, Mrs b-u's 1.2 gives 49 and her (written off) MJ gave 59.

Road roar is generally not too bad, comparable to the 100HP but, again, more variable; there are certain surfaces where the 4x4's tyres make a lot of noise and others where it's quite quiet; noise levels overall are quite reasonable at 70, 80 or even 90 mph. Filling the back of the car with stuff makes some difference, though it also adversely affects the sound from the radio/iPod as the rear speakers are muffled.

I don't understand the intricacies of the TA engine but, if it was any other, I'd say the colour inside the end of the exhaust pipe suggests it's running too rich.

Thanks for the summary BJ. I'm hoping to replace my Mk 2 Panda Cross MJ with the new Panda Cross when it arrives (Autumn?) and need to make a decision on the engine.

As a comparison to your drive to Italy I've just done a four day trip to the North-West Highlands (Stoer and Lochinver) from Norfolk to collect some rock samples. The total distance travelled was 1365 miles including a return drive of 580 miles each way. Both outward and return journeys were done in a single day with at an average speed of 56 mph (excluding coffee, lunch and re-fuelling breaks). We travelled two up, and on the return had 100kg of rock loaded on the folded back seats. The average fuel economy was exactly 59 mpg. The 200 miles driving in Sutherland was mostly on tarmac with perhaps 25 miles on gravel track.

My Cross has now done 120,000 miles and in that time has only had routine servicing with replacement of rear shock absorbers, pads and discs and the servo for the 4 wheel drive transfer clutch (factory recall). The EGR valve is temperamental as is the turbo-wastegate but both seem to have been working reliably over the past 5,000 miles since I've been using a diesel additive. Since new the engine hasn't used a drop of oil.

I'm tempted by the TA engine (lower initial costs, lower tax, lower fuel costs per litre). For the journey I've just done I would have used about 5 gallons more fuel (about £30 extra).

Having driven the MJ and the TA engines what would you recommend bearing in mind I need to use both high speed cruising ability plus off-road when needed?

PaulD said:

Thanks for the summary BJ. I'm hoping to replace my Mk 2 Panda Cross MJ with the new Panda Cross when it arrives (Autumn?) and need to make a decision on the engine.

As a comparison to your drive to Italy I've just done a four day trip to the North-West Highlands (Stoer and Lochinver) from Norfolk to collect some rock samples. The total distance travelled was 1365 miles including a return drive of 580 miles each way. Both outward and return journeys were done in a single day with at an average speed of 56 mph (excluding coffee, lunch and re-fuelling breaks). We travelled two up, and on the return had 100kg of rock loaded on the folded back seats. The average fuel economy was exactly 59 mpg. The 200 miles driving in Sutherland was mostly on tarmac with perhaps 25 miles on gravel track.

My Cross has now done 120,000 miles and in that time has only had routine servicing with replacement of rear shock absorbers, pads and discs and the servo for the 4 wheel drive transfer clutch (factory recall). The EGR valve is temperamental as is the turbo-wastegate but both seem to have been working reliably over the past 5,000 miles since I've been using a diesel additive. Since new the engine hasn't used a drop of oil.

I'm tempted by the TA engine (lower initial costs, lower tax, lower fuel costs per litre). For the journey I've just done I would have used about 5 gallons more fuel (about £30 extra).

Having driven the MJ and the TA engines what would you recommend bearing in mind I need to use both high speed cruising ability plus off-road when needed?

Click to expand...

We have a friend in Italy with the non-Cross MJ version of the previous 4x4 - I think the best version - so I know how that goes. Bearing in mind that the MJ engine makes the car very nose heavy, and causes heavy tyre wear in 2wd versions, plus the feel it imparts to the steering, I'd plump for the TA. The six speeds really make a difference. If I lived on the continent the much cheaper fuel costs - Switzerland is the only other country I can think of where diesel costs more than petrol - it would make it a harder decision but the overall performance of the TA would still be my preference - it really will do 85+ mph all day without straining. I didn't find the MJ particularly flexible - I always felt it had a narrow rev band where it was working well and I tended to change gear a lot on give-and-take roads like those in Devon and this was certainly the case when travelling in convoy with the 4x4 MJ up mountainous roads in central Italy in the last couple of months.

In theory, maintenance costs should be significantly lower on the TA (as well as tyres) but I don't intend to exploit the 18,000 mile interval fully. My car's booked in to Vospers in Exeter for its first regular service next week, having covered 9000 miles since a precautionary oil change at 5,000 miles. Cost was quoted at just over 300 quid with all filters including the pollen one - it was pretty dusty at times in Italy.

My guess is you'd get a smidgeon above 40 mpg from the TA - say, 33 gallons of petrol against 23 for the MJ on the run you just did - so the difference in fuel costs is more than your estimate - I reckon about 11 pence per mile for the MJ against 14.5 pence per mile for the TA. Means that - at today's prices - you'd have spent 13,200 pounds on fuel for the MJ over 120,000 miles (bloody hell that's frightening when you add it up) and 17,400 for the TA - 4,200 difference, which is a lot of tyres and road tax and servicing. The MJ might use a bit more fuel if it was keeping up with an enthusiastically-driven TA, but I doubt that would exceed 0.5 p per mile. I've done more miles than usual in my first year with the TA - I usually do about 10,000 miles per year but will have done nearer 15,000 this year; my fuel cost difference would only normally be about 350 pounds per year in the MJ's favour but is about 525 this year; your high annual mileage shows how much this moves the arithmetic in favour of the MJ.

The TA is an oddity - not to everyone's taste. It's generally smooth and sometimes very smooth but it is a vertical twin cylinder so it can be lumpy. I rather like it but I'm not totally convinced that a well-managed 1.3/1.4 petrol four cylinder couldn't do the biz just as effectively.

Thank you for the interesting comments and thoughtful analysis BU.

You're right that with my current high mileage (20,000 miles per annum) the arithmetic is all for the MJ. Cost, though, is not the only factor. Driveability, smoothness and sound levels at cruising speed etc. are all important to me. Interestingly you commented that the TA could be both very smooth and at other times lumpy. I've found the same characteristics with the MJ. At times it has an almost turbine like smoothness with plenty of low end shove and others it feels as though it lacks torque and I have to make much more use of the gearbox to keep revs in the 2000-2500 range. This may reflect the somewhat unreliable EGR and turbo waste gate. I'm never sure if they are working as specified and may be losing boost pressure. Interestingly the engine was at it's smoothest when the EGR had stuck closed! Not with standing these caveats I've been blessed with good reliability from the MJ.

I hadn't given much thought to the extra tyre wear, or effect of the diesel on the steering but this probably reflects the fact that I haven't experienced the handling of the lighter engined petrol models. The answer had to be a test drive to compare the two.

Overall I've been delighted with the Panda 4x4. I've enjoyed driving it and never cease to be amazed by it's go anywhere ability. I'm a big fan of it's tall 'boxy' shape, upright driving position and excellent visibility. I doubt there is a more capable small car anywhere. At times I do think it would be useful to have more room but in truth rarely has this been an issue. If I need to move furniture then I can always hire a van.

A slightly larger version might prove to be more comfortable on long journeys and I am considering as an alternative having a look at the new Jeep Renegade when it becomes available. I have also thought about the 500X (when it eventually sees the light of day) but have not been impressed by the drawings and mock ups I've seen so far where it looks like a typical Japanese/Korean soft roader.

One thing that annoys me a bit regarding the TA is its lack of engine braking- I drive
quite often in hilly west Somerset/north Devon and find it grates to have to use the
brakes to control speed down hills (never an issue with my previous petrol cars- but
I've been driving diesels since 1993 until I got the Trekking TA a year ago )

The low 1st gear of the 4x4 would help on steep descents, but the MJ might give
somewhat better control. Just my 2p worth...



Chris

Moultoneer said:

One thing that annoys me a bit regarding the TA is its lack of engine braking- I drive
quite often in hilly west Somerset/north Devon and find it grates to have to use the
brakes to control speed down hills (never an issue with my previous petrol cars- but
I've been driving diesels since 1993 until I got the Trekking TA a year ago )

The low 1st gear of the 4x4 would help on steep descents, but the MJ might give
somewhat better control. Just my 2p worth...



Chris

Click to expand...

Agree. I gather it's to do with the TA's lack of a throttle mechanism. The hills round the edge of Dartmoor, and near our Umbrian home, show this lack of engine braking, though, as you say, the 4x4 has that low(er) first gear. You can also easily find yourself doing 35 mph in sixth with your foot off the accelerator pedal.

Yes, I agree with that last point. Still love it though