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Old 23-04-2018   #31
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Re: Engine Oil For TwinAir.

Torsten, that's a brilliant post and thanks to JRK for the added info. I know that I don't have a TA but to get info like that means we now know the reason for the tight spec Fiat require on this engine. The biggest issue now is to educate the Fiat dealers and also owners to ask for 100% proof that the correct oil has been used.
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Old 23-04-2018   #32
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Re: Engine Oil For TwinAir.

Quote Originally Posted by jrkitching View Post
Torsten

We've seen countless posts regarding oil and the uniair system, but your last one is probably worth more than all the rest of them combined. It's the first time we've seen a logical explanation for why using the correct oil is so critical for these engines.

Following your guidance, I've attached a document from INA Schaeffler describing the system in more detail; page 13 gives specific information about this temperature sensor and the importance of using the correct grade of oil.
Thanks for that. I'm a chartered engineer, specialising in fluid dynamics, thermohydraulics and rheology. So it's part of the job to know this.

Much to the dismay to the dealership that sold me my new Panda 4x4 twinair which had the wrong oil put in (cheap full synth 5W40) during the service before sale. Attempts to BS me were successfully deflected :-)

Apparently the vehicle information system had the wrong oil listed, so it may be worth checking with the garage that they have the right data and specifications. The invoice stated "to manufacturers specification" just above the wrong oil.
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Old 26-04-2018   #33
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Re: Engine Oil For TwinAir.

The correct oil (with respect to UniAir/MultiAir) is critical.

For my 500X Multiair is also did a lot of research.

See https://www.fiatforum.com/500x/45620...ml#post4311440

What I don't understand is how the Shell Helix 0W30 can say they are C2/C3.

All other manufacturers I spoke to who do a 0W30 C3 would not recommend it's use in the 500X MultiAir. C2 and C3 are distinct specification requirements. You can't really have both. So Shell Helix 0W30 C2/C3 is a no go.
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Old 26-04-2018   #34
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Re: Engine Oil For TwinAir.

We are frequently told that 97% of engine and transmission wear takes place during the startup and warmup period. One draws the inference that oils are specified by the vehicle makers to recognise and cope with this circumstance. Some engines have been constructed in the past with electric oil and water pumps, which are run for several minutes before startup and after shutdown, to allow wearing surfaces an easier time of it [Sulzer LDA series].

Can it be inferred therefore, that in warm climates such as Spain, where the oil gets round quicker after a start, the quality of the oil can be of reduced importance?
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Old 26-04-2018   #35
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Re: Engine Oil For TwinAir.

Hi.
Surely in a warmer climate the use of a thinner oil viscosity would mean that the oil is more likely to drain back to the sump easier as the warmer engine will make the oil easier to drain.
The whole idea of doing oil changes for example is with a hot engine so its drains easier so the same scenario exists. I remember in days gone by on a hot day after a hard run that the following days cold or cool start that there could be a little bit of rattling until the oil pressure light went out. A thicker oil is less likely to drain and is more likely to leave a film on the bearing surfaces.
Modern engines though have through engineering advances better oil pumps and tighter clearances that obviously need a low viscosity oil for the same protection.

The quality of oil is important no matter where you live including the climate. Different oil specs have different additive packages for different engines. One such thing is for modern engines with puny timing chains like the MJ engines, Ford units and the MG3, use the wrong spec and you'll need a new chain and valves etc within 70, 000 miles.
Hot climates though still need a higher viscosity of oil.
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Old 27-04-2018   #36
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Re: Engine Oil For TwinAir.

Quote Originally Posted by Torsten S View Post
Thanks for that. I'm a chartered engineer, specialising in fluid dynamics, thermohydraulics and rheology. So it's part of the job to know this.

Much to the dismay to the dealership that sold me my new Panda 4x4 twinair which had the wrong oil put in (cheap full synth 5W40) during the service before sale. Attempts to BS me were successfully deflected :-)

Apparently the vehicle information system had the wrong oil listed, so it may be worth checking with the garage that they have the right data and specifications. The invoice stated "to manufacturers specification" just above the wrong oil.
You are a star; official Myth Buster! I had so much BS around my 4x4 TA (uniair module failed at 50k miles).

Quote from the attachment "The switching valves carry out around 330 million switching
operations each during the operating life of the system. This
number of switching cycles at the required precision poses a
significant challenge for the development of the switching valve."

A significant challenge indeed!
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Old 27-04-2018   #37
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Re: Engine Oil For TwinAir.

Quote Originally Posted by Panda IIs View Post
Quote from the attachment "The switching valves carry out around 330 million switching
operations each during the operating life of the system. This
number of switching cycles at the required precision poses a
significant challenge for the development of the switching valve."

A significant challenge indeed!
And one which someone wanting reliability and low cost motoring in a long term keeper would do well to bear in mind.

I'd say it's an engine worth putting on your shortlist if you're in the market for a car you're going to return at the end of a 3yr pcp, but one to avoid at the first opportunity if buying secondhand with the intention of keeping until it falls apart.
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Last edited by jrkitching; 27-04-2018 at 18:57.
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Old 27-04-2018   #38
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Re: Engine Oil For TwinAir.

I can only agree, but with the full FIAT service history might still be worth a punt for the fun?!

In the same vein; I have never understood folk cost cutting on oil and filters, I do get the feeling of being fleeced when comparing high end oil costs with "own brands" but this is the lifeblood of any engine, treat it right and generally it will be good to you in return.

I do realise that some have to operate on a tight budget but a good (and therefore probably more expensive) oil does not add significantly to the years running costs.

Anyways the pdf download is invaluable insight so thank you all.
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Old 27-04-2018   #39
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Re: Engine Oil For TwinAir.

I'm on the fence here. I think the advances in modern engine technology are quite amazing......... but for sheer reliability many engines designed in the 80's & 90's win hands down. The FIRE unit, the XUD PSA diesels, VW 5 Cylinder units and others go on for ever. My Panda will be my last unless it's written off by an accident. I actually wonder if a 12 year old TA with 144, 000 miles would just get through with normal servicing
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Old 27-04-2018   #40
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Re: Engine Oil For TwinAir.

There's a gent on here who saw a TA breathing it's last at 125k as part of his job. The 1.2 lasted 192k I think it was. I could get my mechanic to get the Petronas equivalent of Selenia next time I'm sure and oil change around 90 again (he put 0w 30 C3 in my previous one). Spending 180 year on two oil changes with the right spec no hardship when an engine allegedly 11k.
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Old 28-04-2018   #41
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Re: Engine Oil For TwinAir.

I just returned a 19k miles, 3 yo TA Panda 4x4 to the dealership, after it didn't run properly when warmed up and I had found that the wrong oil was on the receipt for the last service. Workshop manager confirmed that the vehicle information system says to use 5W40 instead of 0W30 and they used a standard Ultra S instead of Selenia.

I did not wait to see how it ran after the oil change, as there were other things wrong with the car: undisclosed hit to the OS front suspension, brake disks 0.2mm off the wear limit, clutch judder (dual mass flywheel?) and went for a new one.

I would not be too worried about the TwinAir unit if the car has been well looked after, but would factor in a potential change of the unit, in the long run. The engine itself should be fairly robust.

I agree that modern engines are not as reliable as older ones, as there are more things to go wrong. An old 1.8 litre 4-cylinder NA engine is bulletproof, but anything with a turbo will need replacing expensive parts around 100k miles.

The twinair unit is actually quite "cheap" for what it is, and is easily replaceable (easier than the tappets under an overhead cam).

But it is definitely something to be aware of.
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Old 28-04-2018   #42
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Re: Engine Oil For TwinAir.

I have a history of Italian motorbikes (Guzzi LM1000 and Morini 3 1/2), so the idea of looking after an engine, closer oil change intervals with high spec oil, and waiting for an engine to warm up, is somewhat in my DNA. So I guess the TwinAir will be an engine I can live with :-)
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Old 28-04-2018   #43
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Re: Engine Oil For TwinAir.

What an absolute brilliant thread this is, and that document from INA Schaeffler is truly eye opening.

Now though, I am completely confused and a bit worried.

Here's the scan from the manual of my March 2012 Panda..



And that, (5w-40) is exactly what I've been putting in our panda ever since it was two years old. Ably assisted by some threads on here, I am currently running Castrol Edge of the correct spec

I have Multiecuscan and after every oil change I carry out the oil change reset and immediately on restarting the engine it runs rough as hell, settling down for a few minutes. Reading the document just posted on here makes me suspect that this is a symptom of maybe this oil is just too thick!

Also see this thread of mine https://www.fiatforum.com/panda-iii/...sion-woes.html with problems I have every MOT

Perhaps this is a symptom also of the 'Incorrect' oil?? Thicker oil will hold the inlet valves open for longer in the Uniair unit and thus possibly give the 'too lean' mixture indication in the Lambda reading.

So, where do I go from here? Shall I try 0W-30 and hope all the issues disappear? ..Incidentally, If I put the vehicle reg into SHop4Parts' online selector it states 0W-30 whereby Opie Oils states 5W-40

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Last edited by Vic20; 28-04-2018 at 15:57.
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Old 28-04-2018   #44
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Re: Engine Oil For TwinAir.

No worries, you did nothing wrong.

Your 2012 engine is calibrated for the 5W40 oil (Selenia Digitek as well, IIRC). Stick to the one in your handbook. The oil spec was changed in 2014, I believe.

That's partially were all the confusion comes from. Dealers who have serviced Twin Airs for years, now have to use different oils for the old and the new ones.

But with respect to your problems, I'd try the exact oil as specified. As mentioned earlier in this thread, the 5W40 spec only defines two points on the viscosity over temperature graph, the rest is undefined. So the only oil that will work exactly as advertised is the one that FPT calibrated the system with - and that's the Selenia.

Although I would not put my money on it, it's worth a try. The Castrol oils aren't exactly cheap, just easier to get hold of.
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Last edited by Torsten S; 28-04-2018 at 16:13.
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Old 28-04-2018   #45
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Re: Engine Oil For TwinAir.

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ID:	190268I did my oil and filter in september last year and i used Car Lube 5 W40 C3 OIL and my 12 reg TA LOUNGE has never run better....16..00 per jug.
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