Yeah, stone cold engine, and a good clean dipstick. I added about 400ml after about 4 months (first time I'd thought to check!) The oil was just touching the bottom of the stick as far as I could tell, so might have just been filled to half way at the factory. Anyway I topped up to nearly full on the stick and did my own oil change after 1 year after I realised inspection 1 was only a visual check!

AndyK said:

Anyway I topped up to nearly full on the stick and did my own oil change after 1 year after I realised inspection 1 was only a visual check!

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Andy - out of interest, how did you get on changing the oil filter? It looks like it's upside down and will spew oil out over everything when you unscrew it. Does it need any special tools or techniques? I did my own interim oil change last time but left the filter as it looked like a nasty job....!

The filter change on the 4x4 - and, I assume, the Trekking - involves dropping the sump guard, which makes DIY a bit more tricky.

Sump guard was not that much of an issue in truth, particularly as you can put the car on small ramps and the drain plug for the sump is actually at the back and draining is improved by the additional angle. My main concern is the oil filter housing removal, as this contains a replaceable filter element, not a complete canister type that is more typical. When the housing is unscrewed, I imagine covering the back of the engine and the garage floor with black goop....

The sump guard is no problem really, just a few obvious bolts. After taking the plug out and letting it drain for a bit (it's a right gusher to start with btw) I just took the plastic engine cover off and stuffed some rags around and under the housing. There wasn't actually that much I don't think.

The paper filter is a right b'stard to pull out the housing, the barbs are big and you basically have to rip the tough paper end of the filter.

On reassembly make sure you use a torch to check you've screwed the housing all the way down, it was quite stiff, and as it's plastic I was worried it was gonna crack. Maybe wants a smear of oil on the threads next time.

Thanks Andy!

AndyK said:

Yeah, stone cold engine, and a good clean dipstick. I added about 400ml after about 4 months (first time I'd thought to check!) The oil was just touching the bottom of the stick as far as I could tell, so might have just been filled to half way at the factory. Anyway I topped up to nearly full on the stick and did my own oil change after 1 year after I realised inspection 1 was only a visual check!

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Both my 500 TA and my present Panda TA were delivered from the factory with oil 1/2 way on the dipstick.

deeyup said:

Both my 500 TA and my present Panda TA were delivered from the factory with oil 1/2 way on the dipstick.

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That's a bit slack. Mine came filled to the top of the bottom notch. Mind you, mine had been a dealer demonstrator and they may have topped it up (probably not though).

The twinair in my Ypsilon has now clocked 98000 miles without major incident, barring a coil pack dying.

Oil has always been hard to read, and still is now!

arseofbox said:

The twinair in my Ypsilon has now clocked 98000 miles without major incident, barring a coil pack dying.

Oil has always been hard to read, and still is now!

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Yes - great idea to make a dipstick in the same colour as oil.

I can only really give a view from a engineering point of view as I don't own the Twinair, however have driven one that's in the family for many miles, plus have seen the testbed results [emoji1]

Really I have to agree with some of the the point that have been made already. It appears to be a fairly hardy unit.

The engine while buzzy is quite well balanced with fairly good crank and cam balance - in comparison the crank balance of the 1.0 VAG group engines are shocking. Good balance and machining tolerance helps with long life, while this parts don't wear out or fail very often, if they are out they tend to cause wear to other areas of the engine quite quickly.

The main areas of failure I've seen so far are:

Turbo Bearings - very small engine + chunky turbo = very high temperatures. Oil changes on time or early are a must.

Sludge - seen in one test bed engine and on my sister Twinair, not excessive and not harmful by normal standards but easily overlooked and can be detrimental to the engine over time if unchecked. Once again maintenance will prevent this and often reverse it if you play your cards right, that's what we did.

Multiair system - Tends to be a weaker area based on the modular engine design but by no means terminal but bloody expensive!

Engine mountings - the engine does move a lot on the mountings, more so when driven hard. This is partially due to its design and cylinder angle geometry. Mountings can wear out within 60-100k, easy and cheap fix. At idle give the throttle a good boot, if you hear a clunking sound, your mountings may be wearing.

Turbo Oil Seals - very common in all small displacement turbo engines. Give the engine a boot-full when Cold (give it at least 30 seconds from starting for lubricant to start to circulate) and look for any blue smoke from the exhaust. Normally cheaper to replace the turbo than to rework it and replace seals and adjust bearing tolerances.

Really it's a tough little cookie for its size, most of its problems are common with other engines of the size. I expected when it was released to be more fragile due to its design and lower casting tensile strength but I've been proven wrong I'm pleased to say. Little maintenance and I can imagine it running to a tidy mileage easily.

Incidentally the test bed trio we had at work in 2012 ran to an average of 125k before failure. Two were the turbos and were fine once replaced and one actually suffered a rather serious crank bearing failure which blew a hole in the block (however this was ran at biblical stress levels and was a hard duty test engine so it did quite well!)

We also tested the 1.2 after the Euro adjustments in late 2014, it did fair bit better with one making 197k before failure, but being a engine under less stress by design I'm not surprised.

Thanks Alexiloki.

I'm thinking we should add a link to this thread regarding premature flywheel failure; this post suggests this may not be a one-off.

Time alone will tell how much of a problem this is going to be, but it would certainly be one of my concerns if contemplating a new TA.

jrkitching said:

Thanks Alexiloki.

I'm thinking we should add a link to this thread regarding premature flywheel failure; this post suggests this may not be a one-off.

Time alone will tell how much of a problem this is going to be, but it would certainly be one of my concerns if contemplating a new TA.

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I personally would be concerned too.

DMF's do have some benefits, but are outweighed by pitfalls..primarily having the durability of a soggy cheese toastie in a dog kennel and the eye watering replacement cost.

I can't see from any standpoint how the Solid Flywheel on the 1.2 costs just under 1/5th of the price of the Twinairs Dualmass.

The bosses Merc GL blew it's flywheel and gearbox to pieces last year, over 11k of repairs and parts where needed, however it was still in warranty and after some fighting Mercedes Benz paid the full price, despite it being a 'wear and tear part'.

Coincidentally I recall reading a tech sheet from Jatco a few years ago saying DMF's are designed to outlive the car....that hasn't worked out well!

Can you replace a DMF with an SMF in a TA without modification?

Mercky said:

Can you replace a DMF with an SMF in a TA without modification?

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I'm afraid not, the parts are not interchangeable and modification would be very difficult bordering on impossible and vastly expensive.

Alexiloki said:

I'm afraid not, the parts are not interchangeable and modification would be very difficult bordering on impossible and vastly expensive.

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If this does prove to be a common problem as the fleet ages (IIRC the DMF has only been fitted since Euro6), do you think it's possible the aftermarket might come up with a SMF & clutch conversion kit?

I'd also expect to see someone bringing an aftermarket DMF to the market at about 1/4 of the current price of the OEM part.

If either of these things happen, then Fiat might reduce the price of a replacement DMF to a more realistic level.

jrkitching said:

If this does prove to be a common problem as the fleet ages (IIRC the DMF has only been fitted since Euro6), do you think it's possible the aftermarket might come up with a SMF & clutch conversion kit?

I'd also expect to see someone bringing an aftermarket DMF to the market at about 1/4 of the current price of the OEM part.

If either of these things happen, then Fiat might reduce the price of a replacement DMF to a more realistic level.

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In theory there would be chance for conversions, however it would likely be to the detriment of the vehicles transmission and affect drivability.

One of the reasons one is fitted to the Twinair is to damp the drive vibration from the engine - I have to add the I have seen some pre Euro 6 TA's with DMF's fitted, I think it was changed partway through cycle.

As its a thrummy number anyway, this vibration can (and does) cause transmission wear and failure in time, the DMF helps to dampen this, as well as decrease mechanical friction and improve in gear performance. This kind of wear is quite common with some ford engines, the DMF has helped but they have used it as a sticking plaster solution rather than resolving the issue.

I think that in time DMF's will be replaced with a more useable option, but until that time my view is that Aftermarket flywheels need to be available to reduce the cost of replacement, however manufacturers won't tool up until the market is there to return their investment, I don't think it's quite there yet from their view.

If I recall correctly the OEM flywheel on the TA is made by Valeo. Might be worth contacting them directly and seeing if they sell to anyone else other than Fiat?

Alexiloki said:

...my view is that Aftermarket flywheels need to be available to reduce the cost of replacement, however manufacturers won't tool up until the market is there to return their investment, I don't think it's quite there yet from their view.

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My view also; putting a SMF into an engine designed for a DMF is just asking for different problems. There are plenty of real-world examples.

The TA is a popular choice, and if this does prove to be a common issue, I don't think it'll take that long for an aftermarket supplier to spot the opportunity and then we'll have an alternative source of DMF's at a more realistic price. If it doesn't prove common, not many folks will be affected, so I guess that's a win-win, kind of.

IMO there's no way on the planet the current price of an OEM DMF can be justified.

Alexiloki said:

Incidentally the test bed trio we had at work in 2012 ran to an average of 125k before failure. Two were the turbos and were fine once replaced and one actually suffered a rather serious crank bearing failure which blew a hole in the block (however this was ran at biblical stress levels and was a hard duty test engine so it did quite well!)

We also tested the 1.2 after the Euro adjustments in late 2014, it did fair bit better with one making 197k before failure, but being a engine under less stress by design I'm not surprised.

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Great post, do you mean bench tests? Are real world conditions simulated, ie, varying revs and load, cold starts etc or do they just run continuously for a long period? What about Oil changes?

Mercky said:

Great post, do you mean bench tests? Are real world conditions simulated, ie, varying revs and load, cold starts etc or do they just run continuously for a long period? What about Oil changes?

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We bench test in simulated real world conditions yes

We also test on continuous running, but that's on one engine only.

As for oil changes that's a different kettle of fish to us so to speak, as I work as a lubricant research engineer. Oil changes are completed at manufacturer specified intervals using manufacturer approved oils and testing is run on separate engines with other oils for comparative purposes.

After testing is complete, if regardless of if the engine is alive or dead, the engines are then stripped by the engineering department and all parts are inspected and checked for different parameters, catalogued, photographed and reports are then written. We then complete oil analysis and testing on the lubricant which is drained from each of the test engines.

Even though our labs are owned by one of the biggest oil companies in the world, we do full and impartial lubricant and engine testing for manufacturers of vehicles and lubricant companies. It's a interesting thing I have to say