Marchionne says he thinks the market wil pick up again in 2014, and so he's not investing until then.

I'd like to know where he gets the idea that everything will miraculously turn around in two years, but never mind that, the fact is that Italian Fiat factories are running at an average of 50% capacity, and so something big will have to give.

When we arrive at 2014 and the European economy is still stagnant, as I believe it will be, what will he do then I wonder. Or will he have retired?

Going back on topic, it's interesting to see that other countries have got some decent deals on the New Panda:

In Germany the Panda More is available for €8,995, and it comes with aircon (I guess this is based on a Pop version).

http://www.fiatangebote.de/Promo.aspx/Panda-MORE/New-Panda-Angebot

And in Holland, they have got a "Sempre" model available which comes with the TwirAir engine plus a whole host of goodies on top of the standard Lounge version for €10,390:

http://www.fiatacties.nl/panda-limitededition.htm

That second one there really is quite magnificent price wise (that's around £8,300 based on today's exchange rate).

Food for thought anyway...

And the first one for £7200! That's more like it Fiat!
Bargain for a basic car with aircon.

But you're right, the 1st one base on a lounge ta for that price, is certainly the one to go for.

I once bought a new Golf from this place in Maastricht, rhd, for about 6k cheaper than uk. Back then it was about 1.44 euros to a pound.
I wonder if this kind of buying will become viable again? I'm pretty sure that The manufacturers cannot refuse to supply their dealers on the mainland Europe with RHD cars.

Ulpian said:

But those people who need a new car will still have to buy one, even if they have to scrimp to buy it, and if they cannot wait for promised new cars that have been delayed, they will buy elsewhere. And Fiat will, as you say, lose even more of its market.

Click to expand...

In a nutshell, it's why we went for a second-hand Panda....

See, also, this article, in today's Guardian.... (Sorry for taking this slightly off topic, again....)

If you read 'Italiaspeed' you will get an exact breakdown of Fiat sales across Europe on a regular basis.

It is interesting to see that Fiat is getting a bit more realistic on Panda pricing on the Continent. It will doubtless come here too, which is another reason not to buy a new Fiat at the moment, even if they were making them

Next year will see a host of new and cheap cars from all sorts of places and it will be interesteing to see what the big players response is. Certainly these traditional companies cannot take such huge losses forever.

GM wants to dump Opel/Vauxhall, but at the moment the costs of complete closure are greater than the enormous annual losses. But they won't hold off indefinitely.

Ulpian said:

It is interesting to see that Fiat is getting a bit more realistic on Panda pricing on the Continent. It will doubtless come here too, which is another reason not to buy a new Fiat at the moment, even if they were making them

Next year will see a host of new and cheap cars from all sorts of places and it will be interesteing to see what the big players response is. Certainly these traditional companies cannot take such huge losses forever.

GM wants to dump Opel/Vauxhall, but at the moment the costs of complete closure are greater than the enormous annual losses. But they won't hold off indefinitely.

Click to expand...

Just found this, after noticing a little sidebar in the latest Car magazine... -- sorry if it's been mentioned elsewhere...:


If FIAT continue to lower their prices, what next...?

There's a substantial fixed cost to running a mass-production plant and one of Fiat's problems is that, given the restrictive nature of labour relations in Italy and the poor productivity, those fixed costs are high and spread across too few vehicles - the same problem that GM has in Germany (not for all the same reasons). Running a plant at, say, 60% capacity means that those costs are too high per vehicle. If Fiat drops its prices to the point where it's running at significantly higher capacity that doesn't mean that the loss per vehicle goes up; it also means that it's building a measure of brand loyalty, though this is nothing like so strong as it was thirty years ago - hence Fiat's large drop in market share in Italy over the years.

It would be interesting to know how much of any price cut Fiat bears, by the time the tax has been taken off and the dealer's margin has been cut even nearer the bone.

If Fiat can tackle its sales volume/European market share issues the finances will sort themselves out. Solving the labour and productivity difficulties would obviously help but that's been discussed here before and the chances of that are remote at best.

homeward said:

Just found this, after noticing a little sidebar in the latest Car magazine... -- sorry if it's been mentioned elsewhere...:

Peugeot, which delivers more than half of its cars to a shrinking European market, lost an average 789 euros before interest and tax in the first half per brand vehicle sold, while Fiat lost 142 euros, a survey by the CAR Center of Automotive Research at the University of Duisburg-Essen showed.

But the pain does not extend to Volkswagen, which is benefiting from expansion in overseas markets such as China and the United States. VW earned 916 euros per delivery of its upmarket namesake brand, according to CAR, while its Audi luxury division recorded per-car profits of 4,242 euros while Porsche reaped 16,826 euros.​

If FIAT continue to lower their prices, what next...?

Click to expand...

Very interesting article and a real eye-opener. Must make hard reading for all of the other motor companies as well.

In difficult financial times, it's no great surprise that VW are doing so well because it has a well-established brand that stands for reliability and quality for many people.

Really shocked at how bad Peugeot are doing. I suppose you could argue they are another brand that has traditionally been associated with poor reliability, just like Fiat. Once you have a reputation it's so damn difficult to shift it, whatever the reality is.

babbo_umbro said:

There's a substantial fixed cost to running a mass-production plant and one of Fiat's problems is that, given the restrictive nature of labour relations in Italy and the poor productivity, those fixed costs are high and spread across too few vehicles - the same problem that GM has in Germany (not for all the same reasons). Running a plant at, say, 60% capacity means that those costs are too high per vehicle. If Fiat drops its prices to the point where it's running at significantly higher capacity that doesn't mean that the loss per vehicle goes up; it also means that it's building a measure of brand loyalty, though this is nothing like so strong as it was thirty years ago - hence Fiat's large drop in market share in Italy over the years.

It would be interesting to know how much of any price cut Fiat bears, by the time the tax has been taken off and the dealer's margin has been cut even nearer the bone.

If Fiat can tackle its sales volume/European market share issues the finances will sort themselves out. Solving the labour and productivity difficulties would obviously help but that's been discussed here before and the chances of that are remote at best.

Click to expand...

I quite agree. And I'd love to know how on earth they are able to run that promotion in Holland on the special edition Panda I quoted earlier on with the TwinAir engine? That must be a loss-maker per unit surely?

Given that oil at around $100 a barrel will not allow any economies to grow, and given that conventional oil production has not grown since 2006, since it can't as conventional oilfields are depleting faster than new ones can be discovered - all economies will continue to flatline, and then shrink. Shale, bio and tar oil can barely maintain current supply, never mind increase it, because they are ultimately uneconomic.

So, if the public will continue to be increasingly more strapped for money as the economies shrink, and it will, then manufacturing will shrink too. Top end goods made for the very rich will (and are) continue to do well for a while, but mass produced products will have a falling market, and they are! Most peoples' money will be needed for food, clothing, heating and housing before expensive near luxuries like new cars.

Given all that, car manufacturing will have to shrink, and this means that the current over production will get worse and one by one the least competitive companies will go. This has been on the cards for a number of years, but it looks like crunch time is coming.

Governments, unions and the public at large will demand that something is done, but nothing can trump economic reality.

Everything is oil.

Ulpian, I'm not quite sure what point you're trying to make other than doom mongering?

Not doom mongering at all, that's just the way it is. Reality really. The public at large won't hear it because for most people, tacitly supported by governments, all our economic problems are down to greedy bankers, greedy oil companies and hard working/lazy immigrants taking 'our' jobs, and the Greek and Spanish economies of course. The back story, and the real reason for the depth of our economic woes, is very different.

My point is just to provide illustration to the struggle Fiat is having to find customers in an unusually competitive market.

Ulpian said:

Not doom mongering at all, that's just the way it is. Reality really. The public at large won't hear it because for most people, tacitly supported by governments, all our economic problems are down to greedy bankers, greedy oil companies and hard working/lazy immigrants taking 'our' jobs, and the Greek and Spanish economies. The back story, and the real reason for the depth of our economic woes, is very different.

My point is just to provide background to the struggle Fiat is having to find customers in an unusually competitive market.

Click to expand...

I was merely trying to say that you seem to be going about making your point in a rather circuitous manner.

Oh, I thought it was quite concise. But never mind.

Ulpian said:

Given all that, car manufacturing will have to shrink, and this means that the current over production will get worse and one by one the least competitive companies will go. This has been on the cards for a number of years, but it looks like crunch time is coming.

Click to expand...

I think it may already be here.... Yet another article from the Guardian:

European car sales have fallen for the twelfth consecutive month and are heading for a double-digit decline this year, in the latest indication of the continent's economic struggles.

New car registrations in the European Union fell 10.8% in September compared with the same month last year, providing a darkening consumer backdrop to another day of mounting speculation that Spain is close to seeking a formal bailout. The eurozone's fourth largest economy was the second worst performer in figures published by the European Automobile Manufacturers' Association, posting a 36.8% slump in sales that was surpassed only by Greece, with a fall of 48.5%.​

I've seen a local non franchised dealer with a few New panda pre-reg in stock.
http://www.dayswales.co.uk/used-fiat-panda-cars-in-Wales
Prices must surely come down now??

BTW the candy beige looks lovely in the flesh

I can't see the offer which started this thread, but what sort of discounts are the dealers offering at the moment in the real world? Does anyone have recent experience for me to compare?

Many thanks.

Palio said:

I can't see the offer which started this thread, but what sort of discounts are the dealers offering at the moment in the real world? Does anyone have recent experience for me to compare?

Many thanks.

Click to expand...

The offer was only running a short while, but I reckon it will soon be back.
I think around 10% off list is what you'll get right now, plus any deposit contribution and low rate finance offers

As usual fiat supersaver are a good yardstick on discounted prices.

Nearly new looks the way to go I think though. Just checked auto trader. Found a 12 reg lounge twin air with metallic, blue and me and 5 seats for £8300. Bargain as even with discount it's nigh on £2500 cheaper than new.

deeyup said:

The offer was only running a short while, but I reckon it will soon be back.
I think around 10% off list is what you'll get right now, plus any deposit contribution and low rate finance offers

As usual fiat supersaver are a good yardstick on discounted prices.

Nearly new looks the way to go I think though. Just checked auto trader. Found a 12 reg lounge twin air with metallic, blue and me and 5 seats for £8300. Bargain as even with discount it's nigh on £2500 cheaper than new.

Click to expand...

Many thanks.

I can get a brand new t/a Lounge down to £9460 otr, but was hoping the discounts would be bigger by now. Still a useful saving on the £11250 list I suppose. If anyone can't get this sort of deal, drop me a pm and I'll point you in the right direction.

Mum is wanting to change her car but the size of discount and ongoing lack of a 4x4 is delaying things!

deeyup said:

I've seen a local non franchised dealer with a few New panda pre-reg in stock.
http://www.dayswales.co.uk/used-fiat-panda-cars-in-Wales
Prices must surely come down now??

BTW the candy beige looks lovely in the flesh

Click to expand...

Some very good deals in there! They appear to all be standard fit cars with a variety of colours (except the one Pop car which apparently has aircon).

However - I've noticed something. Take a look at the blue and red Easy models. The red one doesn't have the piano black finish around the stereo and dashboard.

I think it may well have been fitted with the wrong stereo?