Tuning Panda Twin Air 85.

The Pretender · Apr 21, 2012

In the Netherlands you can only get the 85 hp Twin Air version at the moment.
There is no market for the 1.2 overhere because of tax reasons.
100 gram or less CO2 means no road tax, the 1.2 has 120 Gram CO2, so nobody will buy that.
Later this year we will see the 65 hp turbo-less Twin Air, and by the end of the year maybe a 105 hp Twin Air (sport).
I doubt it will have less then 100 gram CO2 though, but it is possible.

Remapping the 85 Twin Air means 95 hp and 188 Nm of torque.
For more power you need a bigger turbo, 98 hp is the end of this one.

The most important thing to do with the new 2012 Panda is to install a coilover kit.

R1NGA · Apr 22, 2012

You've modified the new Panda already?! Top Man! Looks very good actually. Have you fitted a tuning box or something for the TA engine?

I look forward to the 4x4 TA in due course. Very nice in white too....

The Pretender · Apr 22, 2012

R1NGA said:
You've modified the new Panda already?! Top Man! Looks very good actually. Have you fitted a tuning box or something for the TA engine?

I look forward to the 4x4 TA in due course. Very nice in white too....

No, i have not modified it or have one. (that is just a photoshop)

H&R would be the first to bring lowering springs on the market (May/June) and KW is only planing springs so far.
Coilover's look still far away.

My plans look like this at the moment: Black 85 TA Lounge, Grey dash (in NL), sand/grey clot, Dark Grey steel Barchetta wheels with Gloss Black centre caps and round everything up with a custom made coilover kit, a 95 hp OBD remap and exhaust silencer upgrade.

But all depends on the fact if there will be a 105 hp sport by the end of this year or not.

ivantate · Apr 25, 2012

What is the tax on the 1.2 over there? In the UK the cost between the 2 cancelled out any benefit at the moment.
Only if you live in London and can avoid the congestion charge does it make financial sense.

The Pretender · Apr 25, 2012

ivantate said:
What is the tax on the 1.2 over there? In the UK the cost between the 2 cancelled out any benefit at the moment.
Only if you live in London and can avoid the congestion charge does it make financial sense.

I have no idea, 1.2 model is not available in the Netherlands.

jimbo118 · Apr 26, 2012

ivantate said:
What is the tax on the 1.2 over there? In the UK the cost between the 2 cancelled out any benefit at the moment.
Only if you live in London and can avoid the congestion charge does it make financial sense.

Financially maybe but the added enhancement to the driving experience that the TA provides over the 1.2 is huge (having driven both back-to-back in an Ypsilon), plus the lovely low down torque that TA provides makes it much more relaxing to drive on a day to day basis.

The Beard · Apr 26, 2012

I'm interested in what you were saying about re-mapping. I thought about it with my MJ when I bought it in '05, but didn't bother beause I didn't see much point in increasing power if there was no corresponding increase in torque, and the gearbox on the MJ was rated at 150nm, the engine at 145nm; so pretty pointless really.

At the time, the MJ must have been the torque-ist engine in the range so the 'box couldn't really have taken much more torques (as Jeremy Clarkson would say). However, the latest Panda MJ is torque rated at (about) 195nm, so I'm hoping that all Pandas will have the same transmission (4X4 excepted) which will give me the headroom for a higher output.

One thing I find strange, is that even up to 5 or 6 years ago there was probably a 50:50 split between solid and metallic colours, in other words around half of the available paint colours were available for no extra cost. When looking at FIAT's website only one or two colours are not charged for. Almost all are at extra cost!

Oscar · Apr 26, 2012

Choice of colours...

Good point about the colours - it's only the white which is no extra charge; all the others are either an extra £290 or £450!!

ivantate · Apr 27, 2012

I find the colour prices frustrating and the dull range of colours on most cars even worse.

I agree the twinair is a great and characterful engine after trying it in a 500. I like twins in my bikes so have no problems with the noise and power delivery! In fact its probably the one I would choose.
Pity it doesn't deliver massive economy but that wasn't the concept for this 85bhp version, the aim was to prove the twin can be fun and responsive which I think they have done. I will try and find some guys over here that have tried the NA version to see what they think.

loveshandbags · Apr 27, 2012

Re: Choice of colours...

The Beard said:
I'm interested in what you were saying about re-mapping. I thought about it with my MJ when I bought it in '05, but didn't bother beause I didn't see much point in increasing power if there was no corresponding increase in torque, and the gearbox on the MJ was rated at 150nm, the engine at 145nm; so pretty pointless really.

At the time, the MJ must have been the torque-ist engine in the range so the 'box couldn't really have taken much more torques (as Jeremy Clarkson would say). However, the latest Panda MJ is torque rated at (about) 195nm, so I'm hoping that all Pandas will have the same transmission (4X4 excepted) which will give me the headroom for a higher output.

The gearbox used in the 500s & the Panda 1.2 / TA / MJ I is the C510. But the MJ II got a modified C510R which must have had its torque limit increased to 190Nm to cope with the output from the 500 MJ II. The Panda 2012 despite having it power 'turned down' to 75bhp is probably using this revised C510R gearbox. I'm surprised on the Panda 2012 that with the 'lower power output' that it's not under 100grs/km. The MiTo MJ II with 85bhp is London congestion charge exempt.

The Pretender said:
Remapping the 85 Twin Air means 95 hp and 188 Nm of torque.
For more power you need a bigger turbo, 98 hp is the end of this one.

There is a tuning company in the Netherlands who publish figures on the before and after figures from a re-map. To 'push' the output from 86bhp at 5,000rpm to 95bhp at 4,500rpm has resulted in a diesel like power curve from both bhp & torque.
Can't see the standard fit C510 that's in the 500 (I've assumed the same one is in the Panda) will cope with a re-map like this. I would guess that a tuning box would have the same delivery and possibly equally result in gearbox problems.
Delays on the release of the 103bhp Zagato was supposedly due to the limits of the torque rating on the standard gearbox.
IMHO re-mapping a TA would need the tougher C510R gearbox (190Nm ?) or the one from the A500 (201Nm) if it would fit.

The Pretender · Apr 28, 2012

I don't think the gearbox is the problem, but the clutch.

loveshandbags · Apr 28, 2012

The Pretender said:
I don't think the gearbox is the problem, but the clutch.

That was pointed out to me before on the 500 section. If the clutch was uprated then the gearbox is the next failure point. There are some 'old' threads on the gearboxs on the MJ I of guys who modded but ending up having to get their gearboxs re-built.

Another way to minimise failure is to have less grippy tyres. E.g. upsizing to a set of top class wide footprint tyres puts more strain on the gearbox. That bit of wheel spin might be cheaper than a shredded gearbox. Unless I had conformation that the gearbox was the uprated C510R I would be very hesitant about re-mapping. You'll notice that on other models e.g. 155TB it 'talks' about the torque capability of the gearbox - no mention of that on the TA.

The Pretender · Apr 28, 2012

In that case i wonder what gearbox Fiat will us on the 105 hp 2013 Panda.
I still would remap the TA 85 and just wait and see what will happen in the future.

ivantate · Apr 30, 2012

I have a feeling they are keeping some CO2 in hand for the midlife facelift/special eco models.

The Pretender · May 25, 2013

There is still no coilover kit for the new Panda up to date.

Only springs from Eibach and H&R are availeble at this time.

Aikidoamigo · Sep 8, 2014

Please excuse my ignorance but what is this 'coil over' kit and how does it work to help power output?

Goudrons · Sep 9, 2014

Coil overs look/are like a macpherson strut, a spring fitted over a damper, like what is fitted to the front of most modern cars.

So up front it's pretty much like for like (with some small exceptions/benefits, see later)

The rear of the panda is a torsion beam (all but the 4x4), a beam under tension connecting both rear wheels up together that resists twisting force with a spring wedged in and a remote damper seperate from each spring, the dampers and springs are replaced with the coil over struts.

Though this coil over set up at the rear is still a little limited due to the torsion beam interconnecting the rear wheels, the wheels will still not react independently, one will effect the other.

There are some benefits to a coil over kit over standard.
They are usually adjustable in at least ride height and spring compression, so they can be adjusted by winding up and down an adjuster on the springs, so you can have a lower ride and firmer spring rate if required.

Better quality ones will also allow you to adjust the rebound (damping) by altering the valve (or the gas pressure that the fluid is under) that moves through the fluid inside the damper, a bigger valve opening (or less gas pressure), the less resistence = more bounce, a smaller opening (or more gas pressure) - more resistence= less bounce.

Top quailty ones will be servicable so the springs, valves, fluid, gas, rods and seals can be bought and the units overhauled when worn out.

They can be fairly expensive but can aid performance in the right circumstances (say a smooth track).
Reducing the ride height will lower the cars centre of gravity, so it will reduce the weight transfering from one side to another in a corner.

Properly setup they can help keep the car's wheels on the road better as it stops the wheels skipping and unloading, this help transmit the power to the road and aids the wheels grip for steering/cornering.

You can guess what the drawbacks are, firmer ride is more uncomfortable on everyday roads, they are fairly expensive, insurance will usually be loaded for a modded car, lower ride height will cause headaches over traffic calming, resale values take a hit as well as not everyone likes/wants them (or trusts the spanner that fiddled with the car to fit them)

Question is, does a Panda really need all this?

R1NGA · Sep 9, 2014

Nice answer! And therefore just to add that coilovers are nothing to do with the engine, so don't change power whatsoever.

babbo_umbro · Sep 9, 2014

Goudrons said:
Coil overs look/are like a macpherson strut, a spring fitted over a damper, like what is fitted to the front of most modern cars.

So up front it's pretty much like for like (with some small exceptions/benefits, see later)

The rear of the panda is a torsion beam (all but the 4x4), a beam under tension connecting both rear wheels up together that resists twisting force with a spring wedged in and a remote damper seperate from each spring, the dampers and springs are replaced with the coil over struts.

Though this coil over set up at the rear is still a little limited due to the torsion beam interconnecting the rear wheels, the wheels will still not react independently, one will effect the other.

There are some benefits to a coil over kit over standard.
They are usually adjustable in at least ride height and spring compression, so they can be adjusted by winding up and down an adjuster on the springs, so you can have a lower ride and firmer spring rate if required.

Better quality ones will also allow you to adjust the rebound (damping) by altering the valve (or the gas pressure that the fluid is under) that moves through the fluid inside the damper, a bigger valve opening (or less gas pressure), the less resistence = more bounce, a smaller opening (or more gas pressure) - more resistence= less bounce.

Top quailty ones will be servicable so the springs, valves, fluid, gas, rods and seals can be bought and the units overhauled when worn out.

They can be fairly expensive but can aid performance in the right circumstances (say a smooth track).
Reducing the ride height will lower the cars centre of gravity, so it will reduce the weight transfering from one side to another in a corner.

Properly setup they can help keep the car's wheels on the road better as it stops the wheels skipping and unloading, this help transmit the power to the road and aids the wheels grip for steering/cornering.

You can guess what the drawbacks are, firmer ride is more uncomfortable on everyday roads, they are fairly expensive, insurance will usually be loaded for a modded car, lower ride height will cause headaches over traffic calming, resale values take a hit as well as not everyone likes/wants them (or trusts the spanner that fiddled with the car to fit them)

Question is, does a Panda really need all this?

Good explanation but a couple of detailed comments. When one or other rear wheel reacts to a bump or dent or rolling force the torsion beam is under torsion not tension; you could argue that the trailing arm elements of the axle are under tension when the rear brakes are applied, or under compression when the rear wheels are driving - the 4x4 now has a torsion beam setup, which is very reminiscent of the de Dion rear axles that were employed on racing and sports racing cars in the 50s and 60s, and on the Alfa Alfetta. My only reservation about coilovers on the rear is that they concentrate the loading from the springs AND the dampers through single points (top and bottom) that were only designed to take the damper forces. Many years ago I put coilovers on a Fiat 500 - when I mounted a flat twin BMW engine in the back - great little Mini Cooper eater - and had to carry out substantial reinforcement of the upper mounting points and the cross beam they fed their load into. At the very least the life of the bushes could be shortened considerably; at the worst, they could cause damage.

Moultoneer · Sep 9, 2014

ivantate said:
I find the colour prices frustrating and the dull range of colours on most cars even worse.

I agree the twinair is a great and characterful engine after trying it in a 500. I like twins in my bikes so have no problems with the noise and power delivery! In fact its probably the one I would choose.
Pity it doesn't deliver massive economy but that wasn't the concept for this 85bhp version, the aim was to prove the twin can be fun and responsive which I think they have done. I will try and find some guys over here that have tried the NA version to see what they think.

I can't imagine the NA version could be much fun

As for economy, I'm
now getting 60+ MPG from my 85HP TA Trekking when I restrain myself

(but without the engine's true character, of course...) Usually 55+ MPG.

As for colour pricing, I'm contemplating a new Twingo, but they want
£595 extra for the only red available

Chris

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