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Old 08-09-2014   #16
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Re: Panda Twin Air 85.

Please excuse my ignorance but what is this 'coil over' kit and how does it work to help power output?
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Old 09-09-2014   #17
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Re: Panda Twin Air 85.

Coil overs look/are like a macpherson strut, a spring fitted over a damper, like what is fitted to the front of most modern cars.

So up front it's pretty much like for like (with some small exceptions/benefits, see later)

The rear of the panda is a torsion beam (all but the 4x4), a beam under tension connecting both rear wheels up together that resists twisting force with a spring wedged in and a remote damper seperate from each spring, the dampers and springs are replaced with the coil over struts.

Though this coil over set up at the rear is still a little limited due to the torsion beam interconnecting the rear wheels, the wheels will still not react independently, one will effect the other.

There are some benefits to a coil over kit over standard.
They are usually adjustable in at least ride height and spring compression, so they can be adjusted by winding up and down an adjuster on the springs, so you can have a lower ride and firmer spring rate if required.

Better quality ones will also allow you to adjust the rebound (damping) by altering the valve (or the gas pressure that the fluid is under) that moves through the fluid inside the damper, a bigger valve opening (or less gas pressure), the less resistence = more bounce, a smaller opening (or more gas pressure) - more resistence= less bounce.

Top quailty ones will be servicable so the springs, valves, fluid, gas, rods and seals can be bought and the units overhauled when worn out.

They can be fairly expensive but can aid performance in the right circumstances (say a smooth track).
Reducing the ride height will lower the cars centre of gravity, so it will reduce the weight transfering from one side to another in a corner.

Properly setup they can help keep the car's wheels on the road better as it stops the wheels skipping and unloading, this help transmit the power to the road and aids the wheels grip for steering/cornering.

You can guess what the drawbacks are, firmer ride is more uncomfortable on everyday roads, they are fairly expensive, insurance will usually be loaded for a modded car, lower ride height will cause headaches over traffic calming, resale values take a hit as well as not everyone likes/wants them (or trusts the spanner that fiddled with the car to fit them)

Question is, does a Panda really need all this?
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Old 09-09-2014   #18
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Re: Panda Twin Air 85.

Nice answer! And therefore just to add that coilovers are nothing to do with the engine, so don't change power whatsoever.
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Old 09-09-2014   #19
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Re: Panda Twin Air 85.

Quote Originally Posted by Goudrons View Post
Coil overs look/are like a macpherson strut, a spring fitted over a damper, like what is fitted to the front of most modern cars.

So up front it's pretty much like for like (with some small exceptions/benefits, see later)

The rear of the panda is a torsion beam (all but the 4x4), a beam under tension connecting both rear wheels up together that resists twisting force with a spring wedged in and a remote damper seperate from each spring, the dampers and springs are replaced with the coil over struts.

Though this coil over set up at the rear is still a little limited due to the torsion beam interconnecting the rear wheels, the wheels will still not react independently, one will effect the other.

There are some benefits to a coil over kit over standard.
They are usually adjustable in at least ride height and spring compression, so they can be adjusted by winding up and down an adjuster on the springs, so you can have a lower ride and firmer spring rate if required.

Better quality ones will also allow you to adjust the rebound (damping) by altering the valve (or the gas pressure that the fluid is under) that moves through the fluid inside the damper, a bigger valve opening (or less gas pressure), the less resistence = more bounce, a smaller opening (or more gas pressure) - more resistence= less bounce.

Top quailty ones will be servicable so the springs, valves, fluid, gas, rods and seals can be bought and the units overhauled when worn out.

They can be fairly expensive but can aid performance in the right circumstances (say a smooth track).
Reducing the ride height will lower the cars centre of gravity, so it will reduce the weight transfering from one side to another in a corner.

Properly setup they can help keep the car's wheels on the road better as it stops the wheels skipping and unloading, this help transmit the power to the road and aids the wheels grip for steering/cornering.

You can guess what the drawbacks are, firmer ride is more uncomfortable on everyday roads, they are fairly expensive, insurance will usually be loaded for a modded car, lower ride height will cause headaches over traffic calming, resale values take a hit as well as not everyone likes/wants them (or trusts the spanner that fiddled with the car to fit them)

Question is, does a Panda really need all this?
Good explanation but a couple of detailed comments. When one or other rear wheel reacts to a bump or dent or rolling force the torsion beam is under torsion not tension; you could argue that the trailing arm elements of the axle are under tension when the rear brakes are applied, or under compression when the rear wheels are driving - the 4x4 now has a torsion beam setup, which is very reminiscent of the de Dion rear axles that were employed on racing and sports racing cars in the 50s and 60s, and on the Alfa Alfetta. My only reservation about coilovers on the rear is that they concentrate the loading from the springs AND the dampers through single points (top and bottom) that were only designed to take the damper forces. Many years ago I put coilovers on a Fiat 500 - when I mounted a flat twin BMW engine in the back - great little Mini Cooper eater - and had to carry out substantial reinforcement of the upper mounting points and the cross beam they fed their load into. At the very least the life of the bushes could be shortened considerably; at the worst, they could cause damage.
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Old 09-09-2014   #20
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Re: Panda Twin Air 85.

Quote Originally Posted by ivantate View Post
I find the colour prices frustrating and the dull range of colours on most cars even worse.

I agree the twinair is a great and characterful engine after trying it in a 500. I like twins in my bikes so have no problems with the noise and power delivery! In fact its probably the one I would choose.
Pity it doesn't deliver massive economy but that wasn't the concept for this 85bhp version, the aim was to prove the twin can be fun and responsive which I think they have done. I will try and find some guys over here that have tried the NA version to see what they think.
I can't imagine the NA version could be much fun As for economy, I'm
now getting 60+ MPG from my 85HP TA Trekking when I restrain myself
(but without the engine's true character, of course...) Usually 55+ MPG.

As for colour pricing, I'm contemplating a new Twingo, but they want
595 extra for the only red available



Chris
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Old 11-09-2014   #21
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Re: Panda Twin Air 85.

Strange, in Germany the TA has no road tax.

The 1.2 costs 45euros a year in tax, so not exactly bank breaking.

Diesels are very expensive in road tax but no idea as to the actual cost for the Panda
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Old 11-09-2014   #22
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Re: Panda Twin Air 85.

Quote Originally Posted by blindfire View Post
Strange, in Germany the TA has no road tax.

The 1.2 costs 45euros a year in tax, so not exactly bank breaking.

Diesels are very expensive in road tax but no idea as to the actual cost for the Panda
The 4x4 TA costs nothing in the UK for the first year and 30 pounds/38 euros thereafter.
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Old 11-09-2014   #23
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Re: Panda Twin Air 85.

Thanks for taking the time for such a comprehensive answer.

Is the 4x4 system an improvement then and why?

Also if coil overs make sense they why are they not fitted originally?
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Old 12-09-2014   #24
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Re: Panda Twin Air 85.

Quote Originally Posted by Aikidoamigo View Post
Thanks for taking the time for such a comprehensive answer.

Is the 4x4 system an improvement then and why?

Also if coil overs make sense they why are they not fitted originally?
The geometry of the 4x4 rear end is now - presumably - the same as the standard model, apart from the raised ride height; the Mk 3 4x4 had a fully-independent setup, which worked well but I haven't driven this model far enough to compare with my Mk 4. The independence of the rear wheels on a torsion beam setup is compromised variably, depending on the stiffness of the beam, but then the same is true of an independent setup if it has an anti-roll bar, especially as the 4x4 would need relatively stiff anti-roll measures because of its ride height. I suspect that cost considerations affect design to the extent that many independent systems impose more camber change than a torsion beam.

I'm sure the principal reason is cost; proper coilovers with adjustable spring platforms and damper settings have a lot more engineering in them than the standard setup on something like a Panda. There's also the issue of how you feed the loads from the spring and the damper into the vehicle's structure, as I mentioned in an earlier post. It's conceivable that dividing the loads between separate mounting points could save weight and enable the use of cheaper components such as bushes. Another consideration is the amount of movement experienced by the spring and damper for a given wheel movement; stiff springs deflect by a small amount and you might want the dampers to operate over a greater distance - hence mounting the damper on the suspension arms further away from the pivot point, as they are on the Panda.
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