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General 2012 New Panda - all comments here please :)

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General 2012 New Panda - all comments here please :)

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The trouble with all Fiats is that Fiat isnt just one brand its a family of brands. Any Fiat could never be more powerfull than an Abarth. Abarths can never be more powerfull or stylish than an Alfa Romeo. No Alfa Romeo can be more stylish and powerfull than a Ferrari or Maserati.

There are on occasion a few special editions like the Alfa Romeo 8C. Generally though all of the Fiat group brands need to fit together like a jigsaw. Theres no point in 2 makes clashing and stealing sales from each other. Yes the Fiat group would get the money either way. However if 2 brands clash that means theres a gap left somewhere else for the competition to fill.

So there will be plenty of 1.4 engined cars out there that have more power than the Panda 100HP. But the Abarth 500 has the same 1.4 engine but its turbocharged. In ss form it pumps out about 180 horses which is plenty for a 1.4. But once again Abarths cant compete with the likes of the Focus RS because if they had that much power it would steal sales from Alfa Romeo.

Personally I dont like the idea of a car thats not been built to be the best it can be. Its been built to fit into a neat little marketing pigeon hole. But thats how most cars are made these days as most of the big names own more than just one brand.
 
FullMetalPanda said:
The trouble with all Fiats is that Fiat isnt just one brand its a family of brands. Any Fiat could never be more powerfull than an Abarth. Abarths can never be more powerfull or stylish than an Alfa Romeo. No Alfa Romeo can be more stylish and powerfull than a Ferrari or Maserati.

There are on occasion a few special editions like the Alfa Romeo 8C. Generally though all of the Fiat group brands need to fit together like a jigsaw. Theres no point in 2 makes clashing and stealing sales from each other. Yes the Fiat group would get the money either way. However if 2 brands clash that means theres a gap left somewhere else for the competition to fill.

So there will be plenty of 1.4 engined cars out there that have more power than the Panda 100HP. But the Abarth 500 has the same 1.4 engine but its turbocharged. In ss form it pumps out about 180 horses which is plenty for a 1.4. But once again Abarths cant compete with the likes of the Focus RS because if they had that much power it would steal sales from Alfa Romeo.

Personally I dont like the idea of a car thats not been built to be the best it can be. Its been built to fit into a neat little marketing pigeon hole. But thats how most cars are made these days as most of the big names own more than just one brand.
Click to expand...

Ergh

What a load of rubbish.

No Alfa more stylish than a Ferrari or a Masser? 8C anyone? Lancia Stratos anyone?

What Alfa Romeo competes with the Focus RS :ROFLMAO: and which Abarth could compete if they wanted to? :ROFLMAO:

The Panda has no Abarth model because the charm of the Panda is that it's cheap and cheerful, if people are being asked to pay close to 15k for a Panda they're going to start scratching their heads. Lots of people don't see the point in spending so much money for 500c's and Abarth 500's as it is.....
 
306maxi said:
Ergh

What a load of rubbish.

No Alfa more stylish than a Ferrari or a Masser? 8C anyone? Lancia Stratos anyone?

What Alfa Romeo competes with the Focus RS :ROFLMAO: and which Abarth could compete if they wanted to? :ROFLMAO:

The Panda has no Abarth model because the charm of the Panda is that it's cheap and cheerful, if people are being asked to pay close to 15k for a Panda they're going to start scratching their heads. Lots of people don't see the point in spending so much money for 500c's and Abarth 500's as it is.....
Click to expand...

Er nope not rubbish at all. :ROFLMAO:

I think you will find that I mentioned the 8C but that was a limited edition. The Lancia Stratos is very old now. And before you go running off and getting pictures of the new one that isnt a Lancia. A German business man bought the Stratos name and made his own car, its no longer a Lancia. Im not sure about the current crop Alfa Romeos but I do remember a FWD Alfa with over 300 horses being shown on Top Gear. Not saying that is better than a Focus RS but im sure Alfa could compete if they wanted too. But generally Alfas generally go for style rather than performance. The Abarth Punto could easily be fitted with a monster 2 litre engine with a turbo. However the Abarth Punto never breaks into the 200+ BHP bracket. I think you will also find that the Panda was due to have an Abarth model. There was a prototype and apparently some cars were even made. However it is widely regarded that it was dropped because it would eat into the sales of the Abarth 500. I certainly dont know that many people who cant see the point in paying so much for an Abarth 500. That might be your personal view but its certainly not mine or a lot of the motoring press.
 
FullMetalPanda said:
Er nope not rubbish at all. :ROFLMAO:

I think you will find that I mentioned the 8C but that was a limited edition. The Lancia Stratos is very old now. And before you go running off and getting pictures of the new one that isnt a Lancia. A German business man bought the Stratos name and made his own car, its no longer a Lancia.
Click to expand...


:ROFLMAO:

You think they're going to struggle to sell however many of these -> http://www.italiaspeed.com/2010/cars/lancia/09/new_stratos/1509.html as they want? You also don't get access to all that Ferrari componentry and support from Pininfarina without the support of Fiat.

The 147 GTA was never ever ever a competitor to the Focus RS, please don't make me laugh. As for the Punto Evo Abarth being a competitor, please stop, you're killing me! The Focus has proper suspension, the Punto is nowhere near it and in fact it's a class below anyway, it's Fiesta sized. It would have to be the Bravo which competed and that's not the best handling car either.

There was NEVER any official talk of a Panda and your rumours are completely unfounded. Do you honestly think that Abarth made a couple of cars as testbeds and then only later realised that they would steal sales from the A500? Give me a break!
 
We seem to have strayed a little (!) away from the subject here...

For 2011, apparently no 'new' Panda, other than the 2011MY (model year) version released in September (bigger mirrors etc).

A Fiat press release (widely quoted in websites but not [yet] on the Fiat website, seems to suggest the changes for 2011 are engine only, with the demise of the 100HP?

Here's a Google translation from a French site: (http://levif.rnews.be/fr/news/actualite/auto/fiat-panda-2011-euro-5-only/article-1194816545815.htm)
Fiat Panda 2011: Euro 5 only

Meanwhile the future new Panda, Fiat streamlines its supply supercompact Erlangen. Indeed, the 2011 Panda retains only Euro 5 engines, the only two lifts [units?] to agree to such approval being the 1.2 69 bhp petrol and diesel 1.3 Multijet 75 Ch.

This means that the original version [assume means 1.1 cars] and sparkling 100 HP bows out, to the dismay of fans of this Microsports. In addition, Fiat does not yet seem determined to offer him the recent twin TwinAir inaugurated in 500..... The four-wheel drive versions remain valid [available?]. The Panda model exists in the range of Fiat since 1980 and has sold over 6 million copies worldwide. (Belga) (LBLN)
​
And a Dutch site (http://www.autoedizione.nl/2010/09/11/fiat-panda-my2011/ ) lists these as the full model range for 2011, which seems to tally -- no 1.1 and no 100HP:
1.2 Actual 69 pk
1.2 Active 69 pk
1.2 Dynamic 69 pk
1.2 Dynamic Mamy 69 pk
1.2 Emotion 69 pk
1.3 Multijet 16V DPF Active 75 pk
1.3 Multijet 16V DPF Dynamic 75 pk
1.3 Multijet 16V DPF Emotion 75 pk
1.2 4×4 Climbing 69 pk
1.3 4X4 Multijet 16V DPF Climbing 75 pk
1.3 4X4 Multijet 16V DPF Cross 75 pk
​
 
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306maxi said:
:ROFLMAO:

You think they're going to struggle to sell however many of these -> http://www.italiaspeed.com/2010/cars/lancia/09/new_stratos/1509.html as they want? You also don't get access to all that Ferrari componentry and support from Pininfarina without the support of Fiat.

The 147 GTA was never ever ever a competitor to the Focus RS, please don't make me laugh. As for the Punto Evo Abarth being a competitor, please stop, you're killing me! The Focus has proper suspension, the Punto is nowhere near it and in fact it's a class below anyway, it's Fiesta sized. It would have to be the Bravo which competed and that's not the best handling car either.

There was NEVER any official talk of a Panda and your rumours are completely unfounded. Do you honestly think that Abarth made a couple of cars as testbeds and then only later realised that they would steal sales from the A500? Give me a break!
Click to expand...

Oh dear me how deluded you are. :ROFLMAO:

I never said the 147 GTA was a competitor to the Focus RS. I said an Alfa had the same amount of power as the RS. I am sure that some 147 GTA owners would say that their cars would compete with the RS. My point was clearly that no Abarth would be given that much power to compete with its Alfa stable mate like the 147.

You then for some reason say that I was trying to compare the Punto with the Focus?? My god what are you smoking today, whatever it is its good stuff and its messing up your reading skills. :ROFLMAO:

All I said was that if Abarth wanted to they could fit a big engine to the Punto Evo and thats it. You tried to say that no Abarth could compete at all, what a load of BS. Fiat has access to many parts and if given the go ahead I would have every confidence in Abarth to build a fast car. If you dont have any confidence in Fiat (or its brands) then why do you own a Fiat and why the hell are you here?? :ROFLMAO:

And then finally you say there was no talk of a Panda Abarth?? :nutter:

Even though the Panda Rally cars were never built by Abarth they were plastered with the Abarth logo for a start. This was to advertise the coming back of Abarth and to promote the upcoming planned Abarth Panda.

Not enough for you? Ok what about an actual picture of the Panda Rally on an actual Fiat car stand? You will notice that the sun visor on the car clearly states "FIAT PANDA ABARTH". Thats certainly enough proof for me that Fiat were certainly thinking about marketing a Panda Abarth. Are Fiat known for putting pointless stickers on cars to make fools of themselves at car shows?

http://www.iceposter.com/posters/ca...Panda_Abarth_Rally_Prototype_2003_Poster.html

Dont tell me its a photoshop image and I made it all up right?

You will also note that I used the word "apparently" when talking about the prototypes. Now where did I hear that rumour, did I just make it up? Well no it comes from a site you might of heard of called the Fiat Forum.

https://www.fiatforum.com/panda/209995-panda-abarth-fact-not-fiction.html

:ROFLMAO:
 
Oh my god I have only just opened the link you posted. Do you read anything that people post or do you just spout off??

That ISNT a Lancia I already told you that. The name Stratos has been bought out by a company and the new car has NOTHING to do with Fiat or Lancia!

http://www.evo.co.uk/news/evonews/54606/stratos_reborn.html

And you obviously DO get access to Ferrari parts without Fiat because the new Stratos uses Ferrari parts but isnt built by Fiat.
 
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FullMetalPanda said:
Even though the Panda Rally cars were never built by Abarth they were plastered with the Abarth logo for a start. This was to advertise the coming back of Abarth and to promote the upcoming planned Abarth Panda.
Click to expand...

That was the Panda rally car. Abarth have done rally preparation for Fiat for ages, the Lancia 037's, S4's and Integrale's were all prepared by Abarth, doesn't make them Abarth's though. now does it? For the record, yes the Panda rally cars WERE built by Abarth, that's what Abarth does! Build rally cars. Did you even read the link you posted? It clearly showed that there never was an actual Abarth branded Panda that was going to be sold to people on the street. What's more, Fiat were rallying the Mk2 Punto in Abarth colours years before the comeback of Abarth as anything more than just some bodykits and badges.

To think that the current Stratos could get to where it is without help from Fiat is laughable, if you've ever read the official McLaren F1 book you'll know that the test mules were far far far more crude than the Stratos and we all know how the F1 ended up. The Stratos is going to be tested soon at Balocco which we all know is Alfa's test track.

Your last link is laughable, it's from 2005 from when the Fenomenon concept debuted and at that stage it was nothing more than a mockup designed by Chris Hrabalek who is now involved in this project.

Anyhoo, what's that badge on the front? Would they be using it on there if Lancia wasn't strongly behind the project?
http://theblogofcars.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/lancia_stratos.jpg

Anyway getting back to your point that no Fiat group car could compete with another you're forgetting that the brands in the Fiat group are very different and also priced and specced differently. Someone who wants an Alfa buys one, someone who wants a Ferrari buys one and someone who wants a Maser doesn't buy Ferrari's. That's the thing about Italian cars, they all have such a strong identity and it's not simply a case of Ferrari<Maserati<Alfa Romeo<Lancia<Abarth<Fiat. You also forget the Maserati MC12 which was quicker than the Enzo and got a racing career which the Enzo didn't.

Not to be funny, but you've signed up here a month ago and you're trying to tell someone whose been on this forum for 2 and a half years, lived in a family that's had at some stages 5 Italian cars in the garage and who has been a lifelong fan of Fiat and Lancia rally cars, what to think and you're failing miserably at it.

Just stick to the topic please rather than trying to make ill thought out and far reaching statements which don't add up.
 
Last edited:
Herts Hillhopper said:
We seem to have strayed a little (!) away from the subject here...

For 2011, apparently no 'new' Panda, other than the 2011MY (model year) version released in September (bigger mirrors etc).

A Fiat press release (widely quoted in websites but not [yet] on the Fiat website, seems to suggest the changes for 2011 are engine only, with the demise of the 100HP?

Here's a Google translation from a French site: (http://levif.rnews.be/fr/news/actualite/auto/fiat-panda-2011-euro-5-only/article-1194816545815.htm)
Fiat Panda 2011: Euro 5 only

Meanwhile the future new Panda, Fiat streamlines its supply supercompact Erlangen. Indeed, the 2011 Panda retains only Euro 5 engines, the only two lifts [units?] to agree to such approval being the 1.2 69 bhp petrol and diesel 1.3 Multijet 75 Ch.

This means that the original version [assume means 1.1 cars] and sparkling 100 HP bows out, to the dismay of fans of this Microsports. In addition, Fiat does not yet seem determined to offer him the recent twin TwinAir inaugurated in 500..... The four-wheel drive versions remain valid [available?]. The Panda model exists in the range of Fiat since 1980 and has sold over 6 million copies worldwide. (Belga) (LBLN)
​
And a Dutch site (http://www.autoedizione.nl/2010/09/11/fiat-panda-my2011/ ) lists these as the full model range for 2011, which seems to tally -- no 1.1 and no 100HP:
1.2 Actual 69 pk
1.2 Active 69 pk
1.2 Dynamic 69 pk
1.2 Dynamic Mamy 69 pk
1.2 Emotion 69 pk
1.3 Multijet 16V DPF Active 75 pk
1.3 Multijet 16V DPF Dynamic 75 pk
1.3 Multijet 16V DPF Emotion 75 pk
1.2 4×4 Climbing 69 pk
1.3 4X4 Multijet 16V DPF Climbing 75 pk
1.3 4X4 Multijet 16V DPF Cross 75 pk
​
Click to expand...

I think there's simply no need for Fiat to release a new Panda just yet anyway. We're in the throes of the credit crunch still and a new Panda is only going to launch into an environment where hardly anyone wants to buy new cars.

Best to wait and launch the car in 2012 when hopefully things are looking a bit better for the economy.
 
306maxi said:
That was the Panda rally car. Abarth have done rally preparation for Fiat for ages, the Lancia 037's, S4's and Integrale's were all prepared by Abarth, doesn't make them Abarth's though. now does it? For the record, yes the Panda rally cars WERE built by Abarth, that's what Abarth does! Build rally cars. Did you even read the link you posted? It clearly showed that there never was an actual Abarth branded Panda that was going to be sold to people on the street. What's more, Fiat were rallying the Mk2 Punto in Abarth colours years before the comeback of Abarth as anything more than just some bodykits and badges.

To think that the current Stratos could get to where it is without help from Fiat is laughable, if you've ever read the official McLaren F1 book you'll know that the test mules were far far far more crude than the Stratos and we all know how the F1 ended up. The Stratos is going to be tested soon at Balocco which we all know is Alfa's test track.

Your last link is laughable, it's from 2005 from when the Fenomenon concept debuted and at that stage it was nothing more than a mockup designed by Chris Hrabalek who is now involved in this project.

Anyhoo, what's that badge on the front? Would they be using it on there if Lancia wasn't strongly behind the project?
http://theblogofcars.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/lancia_stratos.jpg

Anyway getting back to your point that no Fiat group car could compete with another you're forgetting that the brands in the Fiat group are very different and also priced and specced differently. Someone who wants an Alfa buys one, someone who wants a Ferrari buys one and someone who wants a Maser doesn't buy Ferrari's. That's the thing about Italian cars, they all have such a strong identity and it's not simply a case of Ferrari<Maserati<Alfa Romeo<Lancia<Abarth<Fiat. You also forget the Maserati MC12 which was quicker than the Enzo and got a racing career which the Enzo didn't.

Not to be funny, but you've signed up here a month ago and you're trying to tell someone whose been on this forum for 2 and a half years, lived in a family that's had at some stages 5 Italian cars in the garage and who has been a lifelong fan of Fiat and Lancia rally cars, what to think and you're failing miserably at it.

Just stick to the topic please rather than trying to make ill thought out and far reaching statements which don't add up.
Click to expand...

Have you checked out your own Stratos pics and done research yourself genius? As reported in this months TG magazine the new Stratos was commisioned by German billionaire Michael Stoschek. He bought the rights to the Stratos name for an undisclosed sum. With somebody spending that much money thats probably why they have been allowed to use Alfas test track. He paid Pininfarina to design the car and the various systems on the new Stratos have been optimised by Stoscheks own racing team. If you did some research you would see the pictures with brose motorsport stickers on the cars side. Do you think somebody would pay a lot of money to own the Stratos name and then just allow Fiat to use it again? Now thats laughable. So like I said it doesnt have anything to do with Lancia.

http://www.skiddmark.com/2010/08/27/one-man%E2%80%99s-dream-a-new-stratos/

You have totally skipped what I was saying about the Abarth Panda. Yes I know that the car in the pic is a Panda Rally I already said that. Fiat placed a car on their stand with it clearly labeled Fiat Panda Abarth. They rallied a car adorned with Abarth stickers. Why would they promote by rallying a car that they had no intention of creating? They werent promoting the 100HP although the 100HP ended up being the sporty Panda. Why didnt Fiat just wait and start rallying the 500 instead? As far as I am concerned there is enough proof to suggest that Fiat were indeed thinking about making an Abarth Panda.

Then you go on to say that no Fiat group car could compete with another. The reason for that is because they stick to making cars within their own sector. If Fiat made a 500 that was much faster than the Abarth 500 nobody would buy the Abarth. If Fiat made a very stylish and powerfull car people might buy that instead of buying an Alfa. So in other words you have just confirmed what I said despite that your intial outburst was to laugh and say I am full of rubbish.

Have I only been here a month? You see the interesting things about forums is that you can leave and join later with another user name. So I have been here before (and paid donations) many times but never decided to take an active role until now. You also claim to know more about cars than me, really? Well im not going to start an immature Pepsi challenge but you know nothing about me. I could be part Italian with an Italian family who has owned Italian cars for generations. I could be somebody who has worked in the Fiat group for many years. Dont assume you know anything about me because you dont.

The trouble with you maxi is that you love having a go at people. You never give people a chance and slam people straight off the bat. You never even question the fact that you may be wrong. You dont care for other peoples opinions and assume that people must think like you or they are wrong. When you said "you are trying to make me think" that sums up your attitude perfectly. I dont try to make anybody think anything by bullying them. I respect everybodys opinions and ideas and think they make a more interesting forum. However when you suddenly stick your disrespectfull oar in with saying "you are talking rubbish" then dont be surprised when I have a go back.
 
Last edited:
It looks like the Active will still be on sale but with the bigger 1.2 engine. I wonder if this will mean a price increase from the official £5995?
 
FullMetalPanda said:
Have you checked out your own Stratos pics and done research yourself genius? As reported in this months TG magazine the new Stratos was commisioned by German billionaire Michael Stoschek. He bought the rights to the Stratos name for an undisclosed sum. With somebody spending that much money thats probably why they have been allowed to use Alfas test track. He paid Pininfarina to design the car and the various systems on the new Stratos have been optimised by Stoscheks own racing team. If you did some research you would see the pictures with brose motorsport stickers on the cars side. Do you think somebody would pay a lot of money to own the Stratos name and then just allow Fiat to use it again? Now thats laughable. So like I said it doesnt have anything to do with Lancia.

http://www.skiddmark.com/2010/08/27/one-man’s-dream-a-new-stratos/

You have totally skipped what I was saying about the Abarth Panda. Yes I know that the car in the pic is a Panda Rally I already said that. Fiat placed a car on their stand with it clearly labeled Fiat Panda Abarth. They rallied a car adorned with Abarth stickers. Why would they promote by rallying a car that they had no intention of creating? They werent promoting the 100HP although the 100HP ended up being the sporty Panda. Why didnt Fiat just wait and start rallying the 500 instead? As far as I am concerned there is enough proof to suggest that Fiat were indeed thinking about making an Abarth Panda.

Then you go on to say that no Fiat group car could compete with another. The reason for that is because they stick to making cars within their own sector. If Fiat made a 500 that was much faster than the Abarth 500 nobody would buy the Abarth. If Fiat made a very stylish and powerfull car people might buy that instead of buying an Alfa. So in other words you have just confirmed what I said despite that your intial outburst was to laugh and say I am full of rubbish.

Have I only been here a month? You see the interesting things about forums is that you can leave and join later with another user name. So I have been here before (and paid donations) many times but never decided to take an active role until now. You also claim to know more about cars than me, really? Well im not going to start an immature Pepsi challenge but you know nothing about me. I could be part Italian with an Italian family who has owned Italian cars for generations. I could be somebody who has worked in the Fiat group for many years. Dont assume you know anything about me because you dont.

The trouble with you maxi is that you love having a go at people. You never give people a chance and slam people straight off the bat. You never even question the fact that you may be wrong. You dont care for other peoples opinions and assume that people must think like you or they are wrong. When you said "you are trying to make me think" that sums up your attitude perfectly. I dont try to make anybody think anything by bullying them. I respect everybodys opinions and ideas and think they make a more interesting forum. However when you suddenly stick your disrespectfull oar in with saying "you are talking rubbish" then dont be surprised when I have a go back.
Click to expand...

Ergh. I said this before and I'll say it again. It's got a Lancia badge on the front. Lancia don't just let anyone use their brand right? Just as he's not going to pay money for the Stratos name and then let Fiat use it for free, but where did I say that?

I don't see why I need to explain the whole Panda thing again. If Fiat had been wanting to launch some sort of Panda Abarth do you not think they might have rallied a 1.4 or a 1.4 turbo? No, they created a cheap car for a single make series to promote the Panda and the Panda alone. Whether they had Abarth, Boobies or Marmite on the sunstrip is somewhat irrelevant. It says Abarth because Abarth prepared the rally car as they've done with all Fiat group rally cars for god knows how long. They rallied a Panda because they wanted to promote the Panda, they're now rallying a 500 because they want to promote the 500. Simple as that.

You seem to be holding onto this "no Fiat group car punches above it's brands weight thing". OK so far we've got the 8c and MC12, how about the Punto Evo Abarth and the Grande Punto one which are faster than their Mito equivalents. It's a BS statement and you keep on coming back to it. Why? Of course Fiat aren't going to generally make all Fiats faster than Ferrari's or all Alfa's faster than Maserati's, that just erodes the brand reputations that you've spent years working on....... A little overlap is common within manufacturers and is a good thing because some people will always want to buy a Fiat rather than an Alfa or a Jag rather than an Aston (when they were both owned by Ford of course)

Your statements speak volumes about you and your lack of knowledge.

Anyway back on topic......
 
JD82 said:
It looks like the Active will still be on sale but with the bigger 1.2 engine. I wonder if this will mean a price increase from the official £5995?
Click to expand...

I'd be surprised if it did. The current Panda needs to be sold as cheaply as possible to complete.
 
I thought that both the 1.1 and 1.2 engines fitted into the same road tax bracket, therefore must put out similar levels of CO2. If that's the case then how can one not be Euro 5 compliant whilst the other is?

I thought the 1.1 was staying aswell as the 1.2 ECO (Dynamic). With the Eleganza & Climbing (non-Eco 1.2) plus 100HP (1.4) and Cross (non DPF 1.3 Multijet) being dropped. I thought the 1.3 Multijet Dynamic was sticking around too as it now has DPF?
 
Last edited:
306maxi said:
I said this before and I'll say it again. It's got a Lancia badge on the front. Lancia don't just let anyone use their brand right?
Click to expand...

The guy paid Pininfarina a LARGE sum of money to basically build a one-off custom car....

I guess he can (and has) put whatever badge he likes on it....A bit like putting an Abarth badge on a Panda....

Now IF Pininfarina produce another 25 as has been suggested, wouldn't it be sensible to assume they would have their own badge on them?

:confused:
 
ThisBitterPill said:
The guy paid Pininfarina a LARGE sum of money to basically build a one-off custom car....

I guess he can (and has) put whatever badge he likes on it....A bit like putting an Abarth badge on a Panda....

Now IF Pininfarina produce another 25 as has been suggested, wouldn't it be sensible to assume they would have their own badge on them?

:confused:
Click to expand...
A Pininfarina Stratos is more or less worthless. People will buy it if it's a Lancia.
 
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