Hello everybody. Allow me to introduce myself. Long post alert.

I am about to embark on this project that should last 3 months or so (famous last words). I would like to ask advice or opinions on various aspects of the conversion.

Normally I am very much interested in returning vehicles to standard. I am mostly into Lancias and FIATS at the moment, but do own other types too. In the last few weeks, I have had the urge to do my first 'modification'. The psychologists amoungst you might say that this is because of jelousy caused by my housemate being the owner and current 16v modifier of the PANDAMONIUM car! ('panda_sprint' on this forum)

Anyhow, I bought my first panda a few weeks back as a run about (see atatchment). Cost £38 and passed the MOT after a bit of tweaking of the carb and adding some coolant. This is not for conversion, just a runabout.

The premise of the project is to create a totally standard looking everyday panda that has the refinement and speed of the 16v 1368 engine. I reckon it won't drink significantly more fuel than a standard panda when driven normally, yet have a wicked turn of speed when required. The whole project will be done on a tight budget and using FIAT family upgrade parts where neccessary.

I have deliberatly chosen this engine because it has the highest output possible in standard trim and still retains the low weight of the other FIRE engines and therefore does not compromise the handling of the Panda, although high speed cornering may need to be addressed!

You might think I have all the knowledge I need living with a bloke doing a 1242 16v conversion in a panda. Unfortunately not so as the Pandamonium Panda is bearly a Panda now in many respects and my housemate is completely rebuilding his engine with custom parts and fueling with aftermarket ECU etc. In many ways, this actually simplifies the job- but I'm not making a racing car.

I have purchased the 2003 facelift Punto Dynamic Plus with the 1368cc 16V donor engine. Done less than 3500 miles over 3 years and then rolled. Runs very well in situ. I'll get onto technical stuff in next post, as I fear this one will be lost if I keep typing.

List of current plans:
- Require a 1992 onward 5 gear injection model. CLX sounds perfect.
- Use standard gearbox, engine will drop straight in using panda mounts. Aware that the airbox will need modifying.
- Fuel pipes will be suitable for injection, but will need to retro fit a 3bar pump.
- Want to keep complete fuelling system and electronics from Punto including fly by wire throttle. I know that using Punto Mk1 sporting inlet and ECU is popular and I even have all this kit, but is this really a good idea for me?
- Engine electronics spliced into panda loom- might require a wiring diagram for Punto.
- Probably will upgrade brakes to early punto type and get 14" steel wheels from similar.
- Possible lowering, certainly need to stiffen the suspension- what is available?
- Exhaust manifold and cat from punto will be fine, but after that I will trial and error with bits of the Punto exhaust from the donor car- not sure.

Any advice appreciated- I should think 'panda-sport' will be able to help a lot as his project is similar.

lewey said:

- Require a 1992 onward 5 gear injection model. CLX sounds perfect.

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sound good, a 94/95 even better as has cable gear change (as punto) and more room for exhaust etc.

lewey said:

- Use standard gearbox, engine will drop straight in using panda mounts. Aware that the airbox will need modifying.

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toooo much torque, you would be better trying to fit the punto box (unlike me ). The heater airbox needs cutting and, as you say the airbox will need to be replaced with an induction kit to clear the bonnet. When fitting the engine do it with the radiator removed as space is tight. I had to trim the exhaust heat shield to clear the rad fan.

lewey said:

- Fuel pipes will be suitable for injection, but will need to retro fit a 3bar pump.

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just finished doing this on mine, remove the fuel level sender from the car first then the pump unit will just slide out.

lewey said:

- Want to keep complete fuelling system and electronics from Punto including fly by wire throttle. I know that using Punto Mk1 sporting inlet and ECU is popular and I even have all this kit, but is this really a good idea for me?

Click to expand...

Hmmm, even some of the big names say stay away from fly by wire, but if you don't you can't use the ecu you have. The proposed May launch of the microsquirt ecu (~$400 bu the megasquirt people) might be a vaible option, one that I'm looking into if I can't get all my electiric to talk!

lewey said:

- Engine electronics spliced into panda loom- might require a wiring diagram for Punto.

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Yep, and one for the panda too (harder to come by if 94 ). This is the last job I have to do

lewey said:

- Probably will upgrade brakes to early punto type and get 14" steel wheels from similar.

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Punto gt/Brava 254mm vented front brakes bolt on with 14" wheels, punto gt/ uno turbo rear discs can also be fitted with a little work, I'll try and dig out the details

lewey said:

- Possible lowering, certainly need to stiffen the suspension- what is available?

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very little.
Lowering springs are out there but you may loose your sleeper look.
Uprated front bushes are available from Japan and Leda do a whole race set up.
Your best bet is to get an anti roll bar setup as fitted to the Lancia Y10 (straight bolt-on).


Sound like an interesting project.... cheers Damon

Thanks for the concise advice. Why is it that fly-by-wire is so poo-pooed. I understand that it is a bit slow and lacklustre when pushing hard, but I am not making a racing car. My concern with the system is that it might rely on wheel speed sensors linked to traction control to work at all- is this true? If so, I can see why fly-by-wire might be more complicated than I first thought.

Gearbox wise: I have heard others say the gearbox isn't suitable. I agree it is a big ask for double HP and more than double torque, but who has exploded a panda gearbox with too much power? I have never heard of this.

Like the idea of the Y10 anti-roll bar. I had a Y10 a year ago, was much more stable than my 750 Panda. You got any spare?!

How easy is it to put a 3 bar pump in the panda tank. I have taken a few FIAT pump assemblies out and they all look very similar- they aren't the same size are they? Can you just replace the actual pump element of the assembly with a 3bar one- for example the one in my knackered Punto?

You could try the Y10 forum for that.

If you dont go a head with the conversion I'll buy the engine no worries.

I'll be honest, I've not had any expeirence with fly by wire (apart from driving my SLK). I think they do use wheel sensors etc as part of thier traction control functions. They are just very hard to set up I've been told.

Gearbox wise, like you I'm keeping my fingers crossed. You can always keep your punto box in storage for the mk2 version

A spare Y10 roll bar, I wish. I'm looking for one myself. You can still buy them new but it works ouy approx £160 with all the parts.

The FIAT pump assemblies are different but the actual pumps are interchangable, so you have all the parts you need just a bit of fiddling.

cheers Damon

The car will work fine without the ABS system and wheel sensors connected, that is for sure. How much it will affect performance is not possible to test as you have seen the state of the car. Before going any further, I am interested in making a mock up of the wiring I might use in the panda whilst keeping the enigne in situ. I will then be able to work out which wires are essential for use and which are not. Removing any plug from the front fuse box causes the car to not work at all for example. The immobilising part might be tricky to work out. Also, I will lose a lot of the information displays etc. in the conversion which won't help. I need a wiring diagram. I have one for an injection panda in the latest green Haynes edition. Not sure where to get one for the Punto though. Will ask on their forum I think.

Car electrics, don't you just love them

I found a Porters Punto manual with a nice set of wiring diagrams in my local library and just photocopied the relevent pages. Its the panda one I'm having trouble tracking down as the one in Haynes is for 92/93 (dizzy and bosch ecu) and totaly different to the later 94 (twin coil packs and fait ecu) that I have

Rather than going ultra technical, what's the possibility of going the other way and back to basics.

Modern blocks will still work with carbs & you have a pre 92 registered car can also run without a cat. It would probably be easier & cheaper to run with twin 36's including making a manifold. Than worrying about the electronics? the air box wouldn't be a problem either as it would shorten the length of the engine?

Running with big carbs would definately use way more petrol and would be costly and difficult to setup. I know from experience. I am trying to avoid this expense. I would still need to provide decent ignition etc. too.

I would like to retain the economy and refinement afforded to you with the modern electronics.

Once I have the engine in, it will be MOTed as a 2003 vehicle and will have the emmissions restrictions of the FIAT Punto it came from.

Alan.D said:

Rather than going ultra technical, what's the possibility of going the other way and back to basics.

Modern blocks will still work with carbs & you have a pre 92 registered car can also run without a cat. It would probably be easier & cheaper to run with twin 36's including making a manifold. Than worrying about the electronics? the air box wouldn't be a problem either as it would shorten the length of the engine?

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The trouble is that the 16v needs the ecu for ignition ( no dizzy take-off etc) and theres no room for the carbs unless you throw out the heater! It can be done but the problems and cost (including correctly jetting the carbs) all adds up and not for those on a budget

lewey said:

Once I have the engine in, it will be MOTed as a 2003 vehicle and will have the emmissions restrictions of the FIAT Punto it came from.

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Nope, it should be moted as the age of the panda, not the engine donner

panda-sport said:

The trouble is that the 16v needs the ecu for ignition ( no dizzy take-off etc) and theres no room for the carbs unless you throw out the heater! It can be done but the problems and cost (including correctly jetting the carbs) all adds up and not for those on a budget

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Ah! Thanks for the info

lewey said:

- Probably will upgrade brakes to early punto type and get 14" steel wheels from similar.
- Possible lowering, certainly need to stiffen the suspension- what is available?

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if you stiffen up the suspension allround and wear a gumguard you should be able to fit 14" wheels which would allow larger brakes... you'd have to have 175/50/14 tyres and spacers though.

As for suspension i saw the Bilsteins a while back... but i really don't fancy driving to suite them.

don't forget to keep a blog https://www.fiatforum.com/blogs as you go

There are some poor detail photos in my twinky gallery

This is useful for reference. Thanks. Interesting what you say about being tested as year of car, not the new engine- will have to re-aquaint myself with the rules about this. Potentially opens the door to a 1992 pre-August injection Panda that could be used without a cat and 3.5% CO emmissions.

When did Pandas get the cable linkage for the gearbox- early or late 1994 and are there many about? I assume FIAT were starting to use Cinquecento bits? I don't think I will use the (5 speed) box straight away, but a the cable stick would leave a slightly easier upgrade path. Also you mention more room for the exhaust- in what way, a hole for the cat or something?

Have started the gorilla wiring process on the Punto. First job is to remove the loom and bits and seperate guff from required components. Hopefully have some answers soon.

lewey said:

Thanks for the concise advice. Why is it that fly-by-wire is so poo-pooed.

Gearbox wise: I have heard others say the gearbox isn't suitable. I agree it is a big ask for double HP and more than double torque, but who has exploded a panda gearbox with too much power? I have never heard of this.

Click to expand...

Nothing wrong with fly-by-wire. It is just difficult to use as it is virtually impossible to get the ECUs for fly-by-wire working off the donor car without a substantial amount of money.

Regarding gearboxes on the Panda. The Pandamonium car has eaten some. Some other people who have done modifications on them had issues with boxes and the 4-speed boxes are quite often going.

Yes, the gearbox is a concern, but i'll wait till mine breaks. Hopefully it will or I'm probably not getting enough power. My housemate has just finished rebuilding a very low milage box with new bearings, syncro, etc. It will be interesting to see how well that performs too.

I have removed the loom from the Punto and have been cutting out sections I don't need (very carefully!). Will remove the accelerator pedal tomorrow and try to get the loom down to the minimum. I have retained the dash in the system for diagnostics if nothing else! I am struck by the idea of using the dash in the panda- or at least some elements. Certainly the warning lights would be useful.

Really need a wiring diagram now! Not sure if they are publically available, having searched long and hard. Probably need to get ripped proper FIAT factory/dealer workshop stuff or something.

Anyone know what the switch on the clutch is for- ends up in the ECU and concerns me a bit? What might ECU do with this information?

lewey said:

When did Pandas get the cable linkage for the gearbox- early or late 1994 and are there many about? I assume FIAT were starting to use Cinquecento bits? I don't think I will use the (5 speed) box straight away, but a the cable stick would leave a slightly easier upgrade path. Also you mention more room for the exhaust- in what way, a hole for the cat or something?

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Sorry, I'm not sure when. Look out for a Fizz, they seem to have them. The cable and rods run inside the car on these (look for the centre consle) which leaves space under the car for a cat and centre exhaust run. And no, there not Cinquecento bits.

When you buy the car ask to see the latest MOT stuff (esp if there was an emmissions test). As its all computerised now it tells the mot tester if they have to do one and its hit or miss on 92 to 94 cars (my 94 panda gets away without )