<font face="Book Antiqua"></font id="Book Antiqua">Hello boys...I'm going to change the O-ring between the camshaft and the distributor of my 999fire engine(there's a little bit of oil inside), and I know how not to lose the timing[8D], but I want to drive my Panda to a car electrician to let him verify it with a strobo lamp!Does anyone know how many degrees of advance my engine needs (Spi injection and catalytic)[?][?]Of course with connected depressor!

P.S. thank John H. for the advice![

Hello again

According to Haynes (1981 to 1993 Version) the timing on the SPI injected 999 FIRE version is set to:

2 degrees advanced (before top dead centre) with the distributor vacuum pipe disconnected, and plugged. Plus or minus 2 degrees.

or 15 degrees advanced (before top dead centre) with the distributor vacuum pipe connected. plus or minus 2 degrees.

I'm assuming Haynes is correct....

You can see timing marks at either end of the engine - take your pick for the most accurate: my personal choice is the flywheel end, as the marks are all in metal... but they're more difficult to see.


P.S. the "O" ring I thought I was talking about goes around the outer of the distributor where it fits into the end of the cylinder head, and wouldn't cause a leak into the distributor, but does cause a leak outside - which looks like the camshaft cover gasket leaking.
However I expect there must be a seal of some sort on the drive spindle of the distributor - I haven't been there though, so I don't know where or how.


Regards


John H

The o-ring I bought seems to be to guarantee the oil seal around the distibutor's spindle...'cos it's inner diameter is approx. 5mm and the external 1cm or a bit more!I checked for oil leaks on the external side of the distr., but I couldn't find anyone, so I think the oil seal you talked about is still fine:I!Now I don't know if I need to put down the whole distributor or I can work inside it,just pulling out the Hall sensor to reach its "axle"[:0]!

P.S. excuse me if I sometimes can't let you understand what I mean, but some english technical terms are out of my dictionary[xx(]

I'd wait before you pull the distributor to pieces:
have you got an oil leak in there?
or, is it from somebody being heavy handed oiling the centrifugal advance weight mechanism??

I'd keep an eye on it for a while, if I was you, before doing anything

For what it's worth I've just about got my hands clean again from taking a look at the old distributor (Magnetti Marelli) from my Panda which was replaced as the repair for this problem:

https://www.fiatforum.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1746

A few things to add:

it looks like the centre spindle would have to come out through the top of the distributor. And it seems to be retained by the drive dog (where the camshaft turns it) which is held on with a pin through it, and the spindle, which is retained by what looks like a 3 turn piece of springy wire in a groove around the whole base[:0]

Also, I'm not convinced now that the pick-up device is Hall effect: they have 3 leads, and I can only see 2 going that way - perhaps it's just a coil

It looks like you'll have to take the distributor off, and take it completely to pieces to change that O-ring, if you do it


Regards


John H

Ok...I disassemblied the distributor to change the O-ring(took 1 hourB)), but my father broke the plastic part that connects the depressor to the mobile equipment inside!It's not the first time this inconvenience occurs(the plastic beings "cooked" by the high temperature[8D]), but I'm still astonished because I saw the depressor's "membrane" is broken...no airtight(I could blow through it)[:0]!Now, I know it provides to delay ignition, so my engine has been running without its help...but I've never heard knocking,except in case of high loads at high rpms, is it strange?And then, could this problem have affected (negatively) the fuel consumption ('cos a bad ign. timing doesn't allow engine to work at maximum efficiency)?


Hope you'll understand this post!

I understand your posts without a problem - just don't ask me to venture beyond "FIAT" as an Italian word.:I


The vacuum advance unit is a common failure.

As I understand it..
when it's working properly it advances the timing of the spark when the inlet manifold vacuum is high, which is when the engine is running with little throttle depression, or a light load, and the light throttle lean mixture is relatively slow to burn.

When you put your foot down hard the vacuum drops, the ignition timing is retarded to suit the quantity of fuel and air which comes ino the engine.
If it didn't retard you would hear the "knocking" as this quick burning mixture would be ignited too soon.

Regarding the performance of your engine with the advance unit faulty:
The ECU would correct the lower tick-over speed.
The performance would be a bit lacking on light throttle.
your fuel economy would be down a bit.

The only way I would expect you to get "knocking" would be if the timing had been re-adjusted to 15 degrees by somebody who thought the vacuum unit was working.


Regards


John H

FIAT= Fabbrica Italiana Automobili Torino (Turin's italian cars manufacturing) or if you like: Fabbrica Italiana Automobili Turbocompresse... but it's not the case of our Panda! With the good vacuum unit on I noticed a slower lowest gear when hot, and if I put off the pipe from it the engine tries to turn off, while before was the same! I know the timing could have been settled in a bad way...I'm going to test the car at various load conditions to hear any possible knocking, anyway I think it's better to let an electrician to check it with strobo, even if I'll be charged for a few minutes operation[8D][xx(]!

Hi there,

First, I don't own a Panda but my Lancia Y-10 has the same Fire 999cc engine.

Simple solution (not for the purists) when removing distributor: score a line into the metal on the engine block/distributor BEFORE removal.

When refixing after cleaning, all you have to do is match up the two 'parts' of the line.

Saves the hassle of using a strobe - anyway why not judge it by ear, loosely attach the distributor and rotate it by hand when the engine is running - just steer clear of the radiator fan! An assisstant may be helpful. You can get close enough to make the engine run smoothly.

Also, oil leaks from the gasket at the top of the cylinder block may appear to be oosing from the distributor, may be worth investigating.

I am pleased to note that I am not the only one to have problems with the Magnetti Marelli Distributor. I binned two before getting a suitable replacement. Some Y10's are equipped with a completely different design which does not suffer from the 'random cutting out' problem.

Sadly donor Y-10's are prety rare these days.



Fix It Again Tony!

<blockquote id="quote"> face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Enzo
FIAT= Fabbrica Italiana Automobili Torino (Turin's italian cars manufacturing) or if you like: Fabbrica Italiana Automobili Turbocompresse... <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

I meant saying "FIAT", rather than the full name :I



Hi to MartinY 10

the Y10 has more in common with a Panda than most people imagine: it's the same floor pan.[:0] I.E. it's the same car with different clothes.
Consequently lots of mechanical parts interchange, even the front seats (which are more supportive, but a bit shorter) from the Y10 slide straight in - I have a set in my CLX.

Regarding setting the timing by guessing, you'll be fighting with the ECU which will try to maintain the correct tick-over speed.. if there's someone who's handy with a strobe it's the best option.

Agreed the Y10's are rare.


Regards


John H

After I put on the distributor with new depressor (and the old timing[^]) I noticed an increased reactivity of the engine, especially at low-mid throttle(no signs of knocking or misfiring)...but the maximum speed doesn't seem changed[}](it's reached more quickly now),its value is about 140-145km/h on the speedometer...does it coincide with your own cars' one[?][?]

For MartinY...the little oil leak inside the distributor is the only problem I've had with Marelli products, but no misfires or anything occured on my cars so...you can trust on them

Regarding using a strobo lamp, can you tell me how to operate with it?I know it needs to be connected to the battery for power and to a spark plug cable to get the ignition signal...then you have to rotate the distributor until the flywheel's notches appear "motionless"! When you get this it means the stroke is correct...am I wrong:I[?]

If the basic timing is the same I wouldn't expect top speed to be any different:
top speed is maximum throttle - low vacuum in the inlet manifold, so timing is as if the vacuum advance unit is not doing anything.
The vacuum advance unit is for economy and light throttle use.

Top speed on a UK specification Panda 999cc FIRE is quoted at 87 MPH, which is just under 140 KPH. I'd expect a higher reading on the speedo, as they have to under read.
I see reports of people seeing 150 KPH on a good Panda [:0]
My Panda never gets the chance to run at maximum speed - too much traffic - so I don't actually know what it will do.

With the strobe lamp, the flash illuminates the flywheel very briefly when the spark happens - at that time you see the marks like a snap shot picture, because the flashes are frequent you see what is happening dynamically.
When you move the distributor a bit (while it the engine is running) you see the marks move apart, or closer together, but they only move when you move the distributor.

The knotches need to be in the correct place - they are "motionless" even when the timing is wrong.


Regards


John H

Turning the engine by hand I saw only a mark on the flywheel, and I think you should see it in front of the right reference...2 or 15 degrees depending if the vacuum unit is connected or not.But sometimes the operators point the strobo lamp on the pulleys, do you know if there's another reference for timing[:0][?]

Then I think the right choose for slightly better performances is to set timing about a degree advanced more than recommended and to use high octane gasoline to avoid knocking at high loads[8D]...the only problem's in Italy almost all the distributors have only 95 RON gas!This comes because it's common opinion that fire engines aren't too much sensitive to timing "mistakes":I

The only 2 places I know to check the timing are either:

the flywheel
the pulleys

My preference is the flywheel, because the pieces are the engine casing and the flywheel.
As I recall it the reference mark at the pulley end is the plastic cover which is bolted on, and not rigidly fixed.

Try comparing results from the 2 places, and see if you get the same results..

You could try creeping the advance forward by a degree, or so, and see what it does to your top speed. while listening for nasty noises, of course.

As you may know we have gas suppliers who sell 98 RON in the UK.
It costs more, but some engines (particularly ones with knock detectors as part of the engine management) can use it and give more power.

The next real question must be does anyone in Italy know about the ECU (engine management computer) and resetting it and the re-learning of settings... and what to do to help it?
I have some pieces of information, gathered from odd places - it would be nice to know the truth


Regards


John H

I forgot to write that the distributor resulted in the correct position when the timing's been checked with strobo...it means the old line on the metal was good[8D]!As I've already told the car seems to be a little more acceleration...and the fuel consumption has undoubtly been reduced!


P.S. by the way I'm looking for other problems in my car:I

Glad the distributor is OK now.

<blockquote id="quote"> face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Enzo


P.S. by the way I'm looking for other problems in my car:I
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

I'm sure you'll find some

Or, do you mean there are other problems to be fixed??


Regards


John H

Apart from the clutch which is heavily worn and I think it won't go on for many kilometres more...I feel the gear cloche a bit loose, even if gear selection is precise...for a Panda's gearbox of course[}]!Then I've the water pipe that's connected to the thermostat (recently replaced[8)]) a bit damaged while screwing its bandage (hope it's the correct termB))...sometimes I see a little drip of coolant[xx(], even if the water level seems to be stable lately!

Those aren't great problems, but I want my car to run perfectly, or almost[8D]!