Hey guys, so i have made this thread for 4x4 owners only who wish help in a larger engine swap.

this thread is made to be a repository of information. so lets try not to go OT too much


right, so i have been chatting with a few lads from the cinquecento section who have installed larger engines to there cars.

now i have been told that the standard cinquecento 1108cc engine's gearbox will fit the 1.4 16v punto 75 engine.

i think that the 999cc panda fire engine will fit the 1108 gearbox, which leaves me to believe that the 1.4 16v punto 75 engine will fit the 4x4 gearbox

also i have been told that the clutches will also fit.


in terms of gearbox strength well that has yet to be found out. for now i am not interested in strength. i do not thrash my cars nor do i "race" them. the way i see it is that the panda was never designed to go fast or corner at speed.
i want to do this to:

A, have a car that is a tad more reliable.
B, have fuel injection. no carb no choke.
C, More water resistant.. that distributor cap has let me down for the last time!
D, Good bye Ignition Module! May i never see you again!
E, yes, a little more power would be nice. traffic is so fast now days and i feel i am really pushing the 999cc engine to its limits even in normal driving conditions!
F, Air conditioning.

there are many more.

so anyway. what i want to know is:

Bolt patterns on the gearbox and engine. will they be compatible?
will the engine mount fit or will i have to mod it?

What would be the best engine to go for? 1.1, 1.2, 1.4? 8v, 16v?
I am more leaning towards the 8v engines. as 16v engines give power best at higher revs.

Parts i would need (my own list)

Complete Enigne..
Engine wiring loom with ECU and code/immobiliser system with keys or RFID chips.
water/cooling pipes changed.
different radiator
extra cooling fan (especially if i fit air conditioning)
Fuel system upgrade:
Fuel pump capable of giving the required pressure.
a swirl pot or fuel tank from a more modern injected mk2 panda. (i would be aiming for the swirl pot system myself)
Exhaust:
i would get a stainless one made up. (been saying that for years)

please feel free to add to this list! keep in mind that i am keeping the original gearbox!

i am not sure which car i would do this upgrade on. i must admit i am leaning towards Talon.

anyway, thoughts and suggestions please guys. Share your knowledge!

I will be posting up links to this thread in other sections too so we can get combined knowledge on this.

Thanks all!

Any FIRE family engine will fit the gearbox for sure and I think the engine mount also, you could fit a 1.4 16v Turbo from a new 500/Punto Abarth if you wanted to.

You couldn't get a 1.4 Fire in the Mk1 Punto only 1.2, the 1.4s only came with the Mk2. The wiring in a Mk2 Punto is alot more complex so I think the easiest way to get a 1.4 engine running is use the ECU and loom from a 1.2 Mk1 Punto isn't it?

yes, i have heard that the 1.4 engines from the more early puntos are "fly by wire" (for you guys who does not know what that means, basically the accelerator is just another sensor going to the ECU. the ECU does all the controlling of airflow and fuel)

1.4 8v grande punto 77hp is my choice for 4x4, but 1.2 8v punto mk1 is also doing its work in this car, and is silly simple to put in{ unlike 1.4 8v}, also with carb and ignition from panda 1.0, or uno 60sx etc...

so what makes the 1.4 so hard to fit? what has the 1.4 got that the 1.2 has not?

i have been looking at tech specs of all engines.

why is it that the 1.4 8v gets such a bad MPG in cars? man its like, right low! when the 16v is far more better?

do you guys think that a 16v 1.4 engine would go well with the 4x4 low range gearbox?
or do you think that the 8v would still be more suited?

I'd go for a mk1 Punto 1.2 8v for the 4x4 - apparently the wiring is much easier than mk2 engines (that fly by wire nonsense, rubbish electrical power steering, etcetera), not that wiring complexity is likely to defeat you John!

The multivalve engines thrive on revs and that's not necessarily what you want. The 1.2 16v from a mk1 is a really cracking engine, but doesn't really wake up below 2500rpm. It does its sparkling best from 4500-6500rpm where it takes on a whole different character and absolutely flies - I don't honestly see why you'd use that in a 4x4 though.

i was more looking at fuel economy. the 16 valves seem to get it better.

if it could be done, i would have a multijet in the panda but i know it cant be.

i think in reality the best engine i can go for is the 1.2 8 valve. the 1.4 just seems very thirsty. i remember we had one in a tipo van that had been converted into a wheel chair vehicle



it only did about 25mpg. when my grandma passed, the van was given to my dad.. who did nothing but complain about how much fuel it used for a 1.4 hehe


how much more power do you get from the 1.2 engine when it is in the panda 4x4? do you not have to keep your foot pined in the carpet to keep up with traffic anymore?

the 1.2 is 60hp right?

Dragon Man said:

i was more looking at fuel economy. the 16 valves seem to get it better.

if it could be done, i would have a multijet in the panda but i know it cant be.

i think in reality the best engine i can go for is the 1.2 8 valve. the 1.4 just seems very thirsty. i remember we had one in a tipo van that had been converted into a wheel chair vehicle

it only did about 25mpg. when my grandma passed, the van was given to my dad.. who did nothing but complain about how much fuel it used for a 1.4 hehe


how much more power do you get from the 1.2 engine when it is in the panda 4x4? do you not have to keep your foot pined in the carpet to keep up with traffic anymore

the 1.2 is 60hp right?

Click to expand...

The Tipo 1.4 wasn't a FIRE motor though was it.

fiat fiorino wheelchair van.. sorry. i remember it having the 1.4 SPI engine.

Dragon Man said:

i was more looking at fuel economy. the 16 valves seem to get it better.

if it could be done, i would have a multijet in the panda but i know it cant be.

i think in reality the best engine i can go for is the 1.2 8 valve. the 1.4 just seems very thirsty. i remember we had one in a tipo van that had been converted into a wheel chair vehicle

it only did about 25mpg. when my grandma passed, the van was given to my dad.. who did nothing but complain about how much fuel it used for a 1.4 hehe


how much more power do you get from the 1.2 engine when it is in the panda 4x4? do you not have to keep your foot pined in the carpet to keep up with traffic anymore?

the 1.2 is 60hp right?

Click to expand...

I wouldn't expect a 1.2 16v to be more economical than a 1.2 8v - where did you get those stats from?

The mk1 1.2 8v spi gave 60bhp and really good fuel economy in the Punto (it will be much better in a Panda). It's a lovely smooth engine and quite quick if prodded hard!

The mk1 also came with an mpi 1.2 8v with 75bhp - that's probably ideal if you want a bit more than the 60 (though even a 60bhp will be quicker than the 999 fire). I haven't driven a 75 for a long time, but it's the 60 plus more urge!

The mk1 mpi 1.2 16v had 86bhp and is a right belter, but gives its peak power high up the rev range. That's great fun but maybe not what you're looking for? Based on the Scotland trip in Panto I'd expect you to get mid 50's to the gallon with a 16v (I got nearly 50 without trying & having some fun!).

I don't understand the predilection some people have for the later 1.4 engines - the original 1.2 is nicer IMHO.

Edit: you certainly don't need to keep your foot pinned to the floor with a 1.2 16v. In fact you can't - Panto will do 85 in 3rd!

Won't be a FIRE engine in the Fiorino, will be the earlier 1.4 as used in the Uno and Tipo etc.

The electrics are what makes a 1.4 so hard to fit, with the 1.2 you can use the 4x4 carb if you wanted or the electrics from a Mk1 Punto. You could probably run a 1.4 8V with a Mk Punto 1.2 8V ECU and loom but I guess the mapping would need some tweaking to get the best out of it.

Ofcourse it is possible to get the 1.4 ECU working in a Panda as Lewey has done with his car. It all depends how far you want to go really.

You could fit a 1.2 8v 75hp engine from a Mk1 Punto, however the plain ordinary 1.2 represents a 20% power hike. Should be enough considering the brakes (or lack thereof) on the 4x4. I have a rather nice Uno 60SX fire (carb) engine lurking in the shed....

hmm ok then. checking the punto's out on Parkers website i do like the looks of the 1.2 8v mulit point injection engine.

at 2mpg difference i may as well go for that! given it is as easy to wire in as the single point injection 1.2 8v.

local scrap yard has a few in too.

Edit, sadly all are 2000 onward. they have the same engine but only pushes 60hp even with multi point injection whats that all about?

http://www.albertlooms.com/content.aspx?id=10

Dragon Man said:

Edit, sadly all are 2000 onward. they have the same engine but only pushes 60hp even with multi point injection whats that all about?

Click to expand...

Emissions. P75 had lumpier cam, slightly larger valves, bigger throttle body, better exhaust manifold.

ahh might of known it would be down to that.

so the engine i think i will go for is the punto 75, 1.2 8v multi point injection with 73hp.
isnt that the one that has the cam that everyone wants in it? 899 cam?

oh theres something for you, what cam is better the 4x4 cam or the 899 cam haha i joke, 73hp is plenty enough for me.

i have a recount of bottle caps and see how many it takes to aquire such an engine with all the bits i need to make this project doable.

i think however i will get fallout out of the way first.. ill still need a car to run around in while i do the project.. be the car fallout or talon.

so i guess that settles it!

i am still interested in hearing other peoples opinions on the different engines so please feel free to carry on

866 cam Dragon

I use 1.2 8v in 4x4 60hp version but with carb and igniton from older "fire", the engine has 866 cam{stock on late 60 hp spi , 1997 to 99 I think, 176B4 code}.

The low range torque is what you seek to upgrade the 4x4 panda, high top end performance is not important, 4x4 can do 85 mph with original 1.0, but it is not pleasant ride, so no need to travel even faster imho.

1.4 8V grande punto gives only a minor, dissaponting gain in torque, but brnigs plenty other problems if one wants it as a whole engne wth ecu loom etc. I would use only bottom part of the engine as a base for mods wth 1.2 8v head, carb etc...

Dragon Man said:

i was more looking at fuel economy. the 16 valves seem to get it better.

if it could be done, i would have a multijet in the panda but i know it cant be.

i think in reality the best engine i can go for is the 1.2 8 valve. the 1.4 just seems very thirsty. i remember we had one in a tipo van that had been converted into a wheel chair vehicle

it only did about 25mpg. when my grandma passed, the van was given to my dad.. who did nothing but complain about how much fuel it used for a 1.4 hehe


how much more power do you get from the 1.2 engine when it is in the panda 4x4? do you not have to keep your foot pined in the carpet to keep up with traffic anymore?

the 1.2 is 60hp right?

Click to expand...

My 1.4 and 1.6 fiat tipos I learned in got excellent fuel economy! Used by my dad and myself at that time.

The 1.4 had the digital dash, bloody lovely, add that to your list of upgrades

i have a digital dash

thanks for the info Bartpanda, i really think i will be doing this when i can find a punto 75 at a scrap yard. (they seem to have the 8v MPI 1.2 engine)

if the swap is as easy as i think it will be, i may jusy look into getting 2 for both my pandas!

If I were to do it (and if it were possible) I would love to use the 1.4 from the tipo in the 4x4. That would be godlike, but would absolutely need an overdrive gear