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Old 01-02-2018   #1
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Study: older diesels safer than new

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018...-cars-harmful/

Data from this bizarre study showed an older diesel (Ford) appeared to be less toxic than the newer diesel (VW). Not sure what chemicals are involved - NOX?
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Old 01-02-2018   #2
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Re: Study: older diesels safer than new

Quote Originally Posted by JCarp16 View Post
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018...-cars-harmful/

Data from this bizarre study showed an older diesel (Ford) appeared to be less toxic than the newer diesel (VW). Not sure what chemicals are involved - NOX?
They don't say in that article but I've seen some studies that say it's because of the much smaller particulates in modern diesel exhaust fumes. These can penetrate membranes and cell walls. The old thick black smoke just clogged your lungs and you coughed it up. It's also an issue with direct injection petrol cars.


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Old 01-02-2018   #3
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Re: Study: older diesels safer than new

Quote Originally Posted by g8rpi View Post
They don't say in that article but I've seen some studies that say it's because of the much smaller particulates in modern diesel exhaust fumes. These can penetrate membranes and cell walls. The old thick black smoke just clogged your lungs and you coughed it up. It's also an issue with direct injection petrol cars.


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Bit of a worry that the particulate trap isn't doing its job. Unless they were comparing cars with traps removed?
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Old 01-02-2018   #4
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Re: Study: older diesels safer than new

Quote Originally Posted by JCarp16 View Post
Bit of a worry that the particulate trap isn't doing its job. Unless they were comparing cars with traps removed?
I don't know if that was with DPF or not or how small a DPF traps down to.


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Old 25-04-2018   #5
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Re: Study: older diesels safer than new

I don't think this information is reliable. I even did not see it in your article.
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Old 27-04-2018   #6
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Re: Study: older diesels safer than new

I was under the impression this was the case due to the function of the DPF. It takes big particles and makes them into smaller ones that can cross cell membranes more easily, so increasing their health risks.
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Old 28-04-2018   #7
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Re: Study: older diesels safer than new

Quote Originally Posted by JCarp16 View Post
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018...-cars-harmful/

Data from this bizarre study showed an older diesel (Ford) appeared to be less toxic than the newer diesel (VW). Not sure what chemicals are involved - NOX?
I’d take the whole thing with a pinch of salt, the car companies involve refused to pay the outstanding balance for he tests, the company claim it’s because it didn’t show what they wanted But it could just as easily be the company conducting the test didn’t do the test correctly, or more to the point they experimented on animals against the companies wishes. The whole thing sounds a bit dodgy and it could just as easily be a scorned company looking to get pay back for an unsettled bill.
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Old 28-04-2018   #8
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Re: Study: older diesels safer than new

It made a Netflix series.

The company doing the tests claims the original idea from VW USA was to gas actual people with the exhaust fumes of VW beetle diesel on a rolling road (while running in emmisions test defeat mode to give it the best possible chance) to see what the effects were against an old Ford truck. Given the roots of VW in a certain rather unpopular right wing movement it was thought using one to gas people might be a PR problem..so they did it on monkeys instead but then found even running in emissions defeat mode the vw was more harmful than the truck they wanted to best so the plug was pulled.

Whether any of this is actually true who knows..but it does point to some interesting corporate ethics..
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Old 28-04-2018   #9
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Re: Study: older diesels safer than new

Quote Originally Posted by StevenRB45 View Post
It made a Netflix series.

Whether any of this is actually true who knows..but it does point to some interesting corporate ethics..
I had a quick look, I think it’s the ‘Dirty Money’ series as that references the test although give no indication if the outcome and also lists some differences in the test to the article posted above...

That said a few minutes into the program the presenter says “f¥[k you, Volkswagen” directly to the camera as well as crying about how his dream car has been ruined by the scandal (a Jetta estate) and then shows him taking the car back to the dealership because his dream car is made of lies....
They also make numerous references to hitler and nazi Germany as well as using the term Gas, a lot when talking about the experiemts on the monkeys, they “gassed the monkeys” that company that was started by hitler you know.....

Anyway looking at the program objectively, I can’t help but think a little bias may have crept in on the journalists part 🤨
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Old 28-04-2018   #10
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Re: Study: older diesels safer than new

Watching it I wasn't sure whether it was the ethics of Netflix or VW that were open to question.

Having said that if even half of the stalling for time they say happened in the investigation happened then neither side looks particularly good.
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Old 29-10-2019   #11
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Re: Study: older diesels safer than new

Regulations forced engine manufacturers to reduce the weight of particulate matter emitted. Unsurprisingly, they quickly cut the large particles (biggest mass) with ultra high pressure and pulsed injection systems. The downside is that more fine particulates are released and these carry the biggest health risks.

Cleaner burning fuels would be a better solution, but we cant have that can we?


Google pm2.5 finds -
https://www.health.ny.gov/environmen.../air/pmq_a.htm

Diesel are in the frame but what about tyre rubber, brake dust and asphalt dust?
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Old 30-10-2019   #12
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Re: Study: older diesels safer than new

Quote Originally Posted by DaveMcT View Post
Regulations forced engine manufacturers to reduce the weight of particulate matter emitted. Unsurprisingly, they quickly cut the large particles (biggest mass) with ultra high pressure and pulsed injection systems. The downside is that more fine particulates are released and these carry the biggest health risks.

Cleaner burning fuels would be a better solution, but we cant have that can we?


Google pm2.5 finds -
https://www.health.ny.gov/environmen.../air/pmq_a.htm

Diesel are in the frame but what about tyre rubber, brake dust and asphalt dust?
Or modern direct injection petrols that emmit just as much particular matter as diesels do
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #13
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Re: Study: older diesels safer than new

Quote Originally Posted by chris3234 View Post
Or modern direct injection petrols that emmit just as much particular matter as diesels do
There's two things with this, first GPFs exist and are fitted to the majority of new petrols (we'll see if they affect reliability like diesel ones do but due to both there being fewer particulates to deal with and higher exhaust temps it's less likely).

Second PM matter is one thing, oxides of nitrogen is another, most euro 6 diesels don't confirm to NOX emissions targets in use. But the vast majority of petrols for a decade do and even those that don't conform to current standard e.g. Fords ecoboost still would pass euro 4. A good proportion of euro 6 diesels don't conform to any emissions standard when it comes to NOX emissions at all that are literally off the scale.

90% of Nox in town centres is associated with road transport.. and the majority of that is associated with diesel engines. Nox is associated with lots of lung diseases and formation of ground level ozone so you don't want it where there are lots of people..for example town centres.

So yes, PM is bad but not the only reason they are going after diesel.
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #14
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Re: Study: older diesels safer than new

NOx is a huge problem and exactly why some diesels use AdBlue. It's a solution of urea in water which removes nitrogen oxides (NOx). The problem is that high temperatures and pressures are needed to get the best efficiency and that's where the NOx are made. I suspect that at high powers they can't treat the gas fast enough so crud escapes the tail pipe.

Power plants have the same problem. They use huge gas scrubbers to remove Sulphur dioxides (which leads to H2SO4 acid rain). They will eventually have to install urea systems to deal with NOx that leads to nitric acid in rain or in our lungs.
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #15
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Re: Study: older diesels safer than new

Quote Originally Posted by DaveMcT View Post
NOx is a huge problem and exactly why some diesels use AdBlue. It's a solution of urea in water which removes nitrogen oxides (NOx). The problem is that high temperatures and pressures are needed to get the best efficiency and that's where the NOx are made. I suspect that at high powers they can't treat the gas fast enough so crud escapes the tail pipe.
.
It's a bit simpler than that, before 6.2 came in there was absolutely no requirement for a car to come close to the claimed figure in use. There still isn't actually but the test is meant to be more representative.

So as long as your clean diesel hit the numbers on a leisurely combined cycle designed for buses and commercial vehicles it was legal for sale.

VW got done for taking cheating to the next level but pick most of the current diesels on the road point them at a hill and measure the exhaust and you'll probably get somewhere between 200% and 600% of the allowable level.

Not because treatment didn't exist...it just wasn't legally required to work to the given standard outside of the laboratory and unlike petrols diesels do not get gas analyser stuck up the exhaust annually to check the emissions gear is present and working.

A proper working adblue system is more expensive than one that only works in test conditions...so guess which one most cars got?
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