German reliability
- Thread starter dave
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German reliability
The problem with waranties direct is that all there data is based on older cars, so where as a BMW might have enough residual value at 8-10 years old to necessitate spending £300 on a warrantee no sane person is going to spend that sort of money on an 8-10 year old fiesta or punto that might only be worth £500-1000 to start with.
All his data shows is that more expensive cars live longer and have enough value for people to want to still put a warrantee on their car
All his data shows is that more expensive cars live longer and have enough value for people to want to still put a warrantee on their car
all very true,
that's always been my theory on Honda / toyota VS FIAT,
quite often a 5 year old fiat will have had 3 years BASIC servicing then Nothing as the 2nd owner treats it as a £5k car,from £10K new.
the 3 year old Honda is still a £10K car ( from £13K new) and is then still serviced properly,
hence the inherent "reliability" of the better cared for vehicle.
the survey MUST be accurate = look at SAAB and Opel / Vaux , cheek by jowl,
almost as if they had the same engines..
charlie
It would actually be interesting to compare the same engine in different cars, for example I think that Peugeot supply one of the engines that is used in Minis.
One issue with this..why is mercedes top 3 if that's why the others are bottom 5?
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Google BMW 2.0 Diesel timing chain "sprocket" failure and you'll find out it's a wide spread some estimate to affect almost a million cars leading to complete engine failure and a £7,000 bill from BMW to fix. Affects 1,3,5 Series BMW's 2007-2010 with the 2.0 Single and Twin Turbo Diesel. BMW still fail to publicise the issue so it's down the 100's of people on forums to bring it to light and forewarn customers of the tell tail signs. I'm guessing the warranty companies are paying handsomely for this problem alone!
Then there's the gear 'drive' system on the VAG 2.0 TDI (Audi A3, A4, A6, VW Golf, Passat, etc etc) for all the engine ancillaries which can fail in as little as 30,000 miles and again cost over £1,000 to fix. German cars especially BMW are riding on their reputation when most of the cars they build are complete s***e.
The inlet swirl flap problem carried on in production for over 5 years before BMW decided to make a change it's hardly surprising this kind of 'engineering' is leading to poor reliability data.
It must be said Fiat know how to make a decent engine, especially Diesel's. Shame the rest of the car isn't engineered to the same standards haha.
Then there's the gear 'drive' system on the VAG 2.0 TDI (Audi A3, A4, A6, VW Golf, Passat, etc etc) for all the engine ancillaries which can fail in as little as 30,000 miles and again cost over £1,000 to fix. German cars especially BMW are riding on their reputation when most of the cars they build are complete s***e.
The inlet swirl flap problem carried on in production for over 5 years before BMW decided to make a change it's hardly surprising this kind of 'engineering' is leading to poor reliability data
.It must be said Fiat know how to make a decent engine, especially Diesel's. Shame the rest of the car isn't engineered to the same standards haha
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the fix for which is to fit parts destined for the 1996 to 2002 passat,
" A culture of continuous improvement"- I think NOT,
I'll stick with my FIRE engines thanks - ( properly)designed @ 1982 :worship:
Shame the rest of the car isn't engineered to the same standards haha
This is true however it isn't like BMW can do any better with their interior. Their cloth upholstery feels like it has been made by Primark.
It's meant to be like that, to remind you that next time you go to a BMW showroom you should pay an extra grand or so for leather. My pet peeve with german cars, everything good is optional and expensive and the basic car is crap.
Just a general observation regarding 'German' cars.
Do I think they are 'more reliable' than other makes and brands?
No I don't.
My reasoning for this is as follows.
I'm lucky enough to drive 'high end' vehicles as part of my business/profession. Overwhelmingly the cars I drive are German. My daily driver WAS, for example an R32 Golf(Mark 5 I think) with DSG gearbox.
That car had a known fault from VW from the day I drove it. Namely a faulty gearbox problem to do with (all) DSG fitted cars. Was the car fixed under warranty?
NO!!
The problem is that in Europe, the fault 'only applied to a few hundred cars' that were fitted with a faulty component. All the other cars, outside that batch aren't deemed to have that fault so no warranty cover.
VW usually have a 2-3 year warranty. That R32 Had covered less than 30,000 miles by the time the 'fault' developed. The car was serviced on the button and never 'thrashed' (I'm nearly 50 so those days are behind me)
HOWEVER, if you look at the United States ALL DSG fitted cars have a 'lifetime warranty' referring to the DSG gearbox ALONE. That is because 'litigation and people power' have forced VW into this route.
In Europe you are treated as a c@@£!! Sorry for the 'expletive'!!
I also get to drive Mercedes on a daily basis. That could be an S class limousine (128,000km) a Mercedes ML 320CDI 4 Matic(140,000 km)/ SL AMG 63(42,000km) AMG ML 63(45,000km) Porsche Panamera 4.8 Turbo(20,000km) Porsche Cayenne 4.8 Turbo (Minimal kilometres)
ALL of these cars are serviced 'on the button' and looked after very well.
With the exception of the AMG SL63 and the Porsche Cayenne Turbo ALL the others have had serious reliability problems. So parts on the older cars have worn out quicker than you'd expect, the ML 320 4 Matic has had its suspension completely replaced at a cost of €6000 recently. The S class has also had the front suspension replaced(€1800)
The most unreliable car, in my experience is the Panamera.
Mainly due to sensor problems and engine management lights etc coming on.
The car had the cam cover and alternator replaced by a factory recall when the car was only 3 weeks old.
So are German cars more reliable??
It's a load of old' tosh, in my book.
I have an old Jaguar at home in a lock up that starts and runs with minimum effort....
Okay, maybe more effort than that in truth............
Do I think they are 'more reliable' than other makes and brands?
No I don't.
My reasoning for this is as follows.
I'm lucky enough to drive 'high end' vehicles as part of my business/profession. Overwhelmingly the cars I drive are German. My daily driver WAS, for example an R32 Golf(Mark 5 I think) with DSG gearbox.
That car had a known fault from VW from the day I drove it. Namely a faulty gearbox problem to do with (all) DSG fitted cars. Was the car fixed under warranty?
NO!!
The problem is that in Europe, the fault 'only applied to a few hundred cars' that were fitted with a faulty component. All the other cars, outside that batch aren't deemed to have that fault so no warranty cover.
VW usually have a 2-3 year warranty. That R32 Had covered less than 30,000 miles by the time the 'fault' developed. The car was serviced on the button and never 'thrashed' (I'm nearly 50 so those days are behind me)
HOWEVER, if you look at the United States ALL DSG fitted cars have a 'lifetime warranty' referring to the DSG gearbox ALONE. That is because 'litigation and people power' have forced VW into this route.
In Europe you are treated as a c@@£!! Sorry for the 'expletive'!!
I also get to drive Mercedes on a daily basis. That could be an S class limousine (128,000km) a Mercedes ML 320CDI 4 Matic(140,000 km)/ SL AMG 63(42,000km) AMG ML 63(45,000km) Porsche Panamera 4.8 Turbo(20,000km) Porsche Cayenne 4.8 Turbo (Minimal kilometres)
ALL of these cars are serviced 'on the button' and looked after very well.
With the exception of the AMG SL63 and the Porsche Cayenne Turbo ALL the others have had serious reliability problems. So parts on the older cars have worn out quicker than you'd expect, the ML 320 4 Matic has had its suspension completely replaced at a cost of €6000 recently. The S class has also had the front suspension replaced(€1800)
The most unreliable car, in my experience is the Panamera.
Mainly due to sensor problems and engine management lights etc coming on.
The car had the cam cover and alternator replaced by a factory recall when the car was only 3 weeks old.
So are German cars more reliable??
It's a load of old' tosh, in my book.
I have an old Jaguar at home in a lock up that starts and runs with minimum effort....
Okay, maybe more effort than that in truth............
If you start speccing it up, whats the point in selling it? You are only hitting the sales of your better models or you may as well buy the better model in the first place
Demand for any basic German car you can probably count on one hand - there aren't going to be many people walk into a BMW showroom and ask for a cloth interior on their new car - people who are buying BMW or any German model they will have a bit of money to spend
In a world where we are tightening our purse strings why waste money on better quality fabrics/plastics/spec etc for something that might sit rotting in a port unsold for years on end and sell in really low numbers - you may as well concentrate majority of your budget on what sells for you and BMWs market or any of the German marques is not low budget low frills customers
Naturally there is the odd one or two tight wads in the world so they are obliged to sell a basic version although i can imagine they try and steer you away from it or encourage you to spend money speccing it up
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Regarding the 'spec' of any car I must admit I was surprised to find that
most German manufacturers charge for nearly all 'upgrades' on their cars.
The radio in a Porsche 911 Turbo is an 'extra' and having looked at
the order sheets for several German makes this is generally the case.
Most other manufacturers specify a basic 'luxury pack' that can be enhanced
by the client at extra cost.
Leather, on a Jaguar is usually deemed standard fitment as is an auto box.
On older Jaguars you would of had to pay EXTRA to get a manual gearbox.
Usually, cars perceived as 'upmarket' but lacking in all the options
tend(tended) to be 'company cars' or 'fleet owned'.
The main problem with 'spec ing' a whole package of extras is that
it is:
1) Expensive for the purchaser when new
2) Subject to individual tastes(Black and red leather interior etc)
It is always best to buy a car with more options so it is 'easier' to sell!!
Likewise, you can save a load of money buying second hand cars that have been
fully spec ed and hopefully, tastefully thought out regarding paint and interiors etc.
Best
Malcolm
most German manufacturers charge for nearly all 'upgrades' on their cars.
The radio in a Porsche 911 Turbo is an 'extra' and having looked at
the order sheets for several German makes this is generally the case.
Most other manufacturers specify a basic 'luxury pack' that can be enhanced
by the client at extra cost.
Leather, on a Jaguar is usually deemed standard fitment as is an auto box.
On older Jaguars you would of had to pay EXTRA to get a manual gearbox.
Usually, cars perceived as 'upmarket' but lacking in all the options
tend(tended) to be 'company cars' or 'fleet owned'.
The main problem with 'spec ing' a whole package of extras is that
it is:
1) Expensive for the purchaser when new
2) Subject to individual tastes(Black and red leather interior etc)
It is always best to buy a car with more options so it is 'easier' to sell!!
Likewise, you can save a load of money buying second hand cars that have been
fully spec ed and hopefully, tastefully thought out regarding paint and interiors etc.
Best
Malcolm
They are built to order anyway, so there aren't unsold fields in different specs waiting for a buyer like Ford. They might as well advertise the golf starting at 24k considering thats what you need to get one that isn't embarrassing. Also I very much doubt they discourage you from speccing a car up it costs you more to buy the bits individually, which is in their favour..