do you know the part number of the Pilot bearing that goes in the end of the crankshaft the main dealer here says it comes with the crankshaft! it must be avalable seperately surely
andyspyder

Looking at ePer it does appear to be part and parcel of the crankshaft.

That’s ridiculous for the sake of a £10 bearing you’re expected to replace the crank! Looks like I remove it and get the part number off the bearing

andyspyder said:

That’s ridiculous for the sake of a £10 bearing you’re expected to replace the crank! Looks like I remove it and get the part number off the bearing

Click to expand...

Have you tried a motor engineers?

One where they actually. Refurb engines. Grind cranks. Hone bores etc.

Charlie

andyspyder said:

do you know the part number of the Pilot bearing that goes in the end of the crankshaft

Click to expand...

Does it have one?

ePER shows the gearbox main shaft with just splines for the clutch disc. It doesn't show a spigot on the end of the shaft to go into a bearing.
.

Davren said:

Does it have one?

ePER shows the gearbox main shaft with just splines for the clutch disc. It doesn't show a spigot on the end of the shaft to go into a bearing.
.

Click to expand...

I was wondering that too. As I handed "Becky" over to Harrisons for her clutch change I didn't actually see it stripped down but from what I see in the Haynes manual illustrations (which aren't optimised to show a view of the first motion shaft/flywheel face) there doesn't look to be a spigot on the first motion shaft. If so, no pilot bearing needed?

In these sort of situations - where I'm looking for obscure ball/roller/needle bearings - I go down to Forth Engineering near Newhaven (West Shore Road). If you take the old bearing with you they can match it, even better if there are some numbers on it. In cases of last resort they can work from measurements of bearing housings/shaft sizes. Wonderfully helpful people. Also, as they are not so much strictly "car people" they can come up with solutions which don't immediately occur to someone like us who think about things with our "car related" hats on.

In the past they've sourced several obsolete alternator sealed ball races, a transfer gear needle roller bearing for an Austin Ambassador transmission (I didn't think there was a hope of getting that one!), and a transmission bearing for a DAF 33 Variomatic primary unit!

I like Charlie's suggestion to approach engine/gearbox reconditioners. I'm very much into the older cars and you are likely to find that such places have boxes full of "goodies" left over from previous builds where all the parts were not required. Worth it's weight in gold to get "in" with places like this!

That was strange. I edited the rather unprofessional "DAF 33 Variomatic main pulley" to read, more correctly "primary unit" and when I told it to save the edit it seems to have done a complete new post but with these words changed (see above). Bet it was something "weird" I did, but I've no idea what?

Pugglt Auld Jock said:

That was strange. I edited the rather unprofessional "DAF 33 Variomatic main pulley" to read, more correctly "primary unit" and when I told it to save the edit it seems to have done a complete new post but with these words changed (see above). Bet it was something "weird" I did, but I've no idea what?

Click to expand...

Sorted for you

Zeewulf said:

Sorted for you

Click to expand...

Thank you.

there is a spigot on the input shaft


what it fits into I don't know

koalar said:

there is a spigot on the input shaft


what it fits into I don't know

Click to expand...

That looks too short.

Just an alignment aid maybe?

koalar said:

there is a spigot on the input shaft


what it fits into I don't know

Click to expand...

Nope. Unless I'm much mistaken that hole is where the machine that makes the shaft holds it - like a running centre on a lathe? It has nothing to do with holding the shaft when fitted to the vehicle. The shaft is somewhat tapered in front of the splines as this is good engineering practice but it also helps guide it through the centre of the driven plate when fitting. The spigot, if it had one, would look like this. A parallel machined projection of the shaft beyond the splined portion:

http://mgaguru.com/mgtech/gearbox/gt402a.htm

and the bearing, which will fit inside the crankshaft/flywheel, will look something like this:

https://www.rwdmotorsport.com/spigot-bearing.html

but might be a plain bronze or more conventional looking ball race.

So, looking at your shaft there is no Pilot on it so it can't make use of a pilot (spigot) bearing, thus your application has no spigot bearing.

We generally did away with spigot bearings when we changed to 'end-on' gearboxes in FWD cars. Not sure if RWD still use them, will depend on the design of the box.

With an in-line engine and gearbox for RWD, the input shaft sits in a big bearing in the front of the gearbox housing, and is then just supported at the flywheel in a spigot bearing, often just a bronze bush, and at the inner end, a needle roller bearing in the mainshaft. This allows the inpit shaft to rotate at different speeds to the mainshaft, which is also the output shaft. This is a 'three-shaft' gearbox, as there is then a layshaft alongside (or below) the input/main to give the different gears.

In transverse gearboxes, we usually get a 'two-shaft' box. The input shaft is supported at both ends within the casing, and the output shaft alongside is similarly supported. With a big bearing at each end, there is no need for a spigot.

I'm not aware of any FIRE engine using a 3-shaft gearbox, so I doubt there has ever been a spigot bearing.

The big question is why the OP thinks he needs one. Is it apparently missing perhaps? Shame the dealer parts guy didn't know about these things. There's more to just being able to look stuff up. Rover group used to do a 'Parts Technical' correspondence course. Still got mine, although it told me nothing new back then (1983) as I'd lived and breathed motor cars since I was born.

portland_bill said:

We generally did away with spigot bearings when we changed to 'end-on' gearboxes in FWD cars. Not sure if RWD still use them, will depend on the design of the box.

With an in-line engine and gearbox for RWD, the input shaft sits in a big bearing in the front of the gearbox housing, and is then just supported at the flywheel in a spigot bearing, often just a bronze bush, and at the inner end, a needle roller bearing in the mainshaft. This allows the inpit shaft to rotate at different speeds to the mainshaft, which is also the output shaft. This is a 'three-shaft' gearbox, as there is then a layshaft alongside (or below) the input/main to give the different gears.

In transverse gearboxes, we usually get a 'two-shaft' box. The input shaft is supported at both ends within the casing, and the output shaft alongside is similarly supported. With a big bearing at each end, there is no need for a spigot.

I'm not aware of any FIRE engine using a 3-shaft gearbox, so I doubt there has ever been a spigot bearing.

The big question is why the OP thinks he needs one. Is it apparently missing perhaps? Shame the dealer parts guy didn't know about these things. There's more to just being able to look stuff up. Rover group used to do a 'Parts Technical' correspondence course. Still got mine, although it told me nothing new back then (1983) as I'd lived and breathed motor cars since I was born.

Click to expand...

A very well worded response PB. I too have been wondering why he thinks he needs one. Could it be that he has the well known worn out, so noisy, input shaft bearing problem and is getting nomenclature (cor, big word!) mixed up?

Pugglt Auld Jock said:

...nomenclature (cor, big word!)

Click to expand...

Now, don't you start being clever with your multisyllabic words!
I think I've got a headache now.

The Honda Jazz gearbox is noted for a rattling noise in neutral (one of its few faults). It's caused by worn input shaft bearings. It has a pair at the clutch end of he 'box. The fix is to remove the input shaft and fit new sealed bearings.

Fiat Punto Mk2/a gearbox was noted for rattling input bearings so it was common to fit new when the clutch was changed. It used oil lubed bearings that tended to run dry on engne start. The Panda as much the same design but bearings are grease filled so don't suffer the dry start syndrome.

Is it possible the early Panda had the same 'box and late Punto Mk2a? If so, you may find that 2RS type bearings can be straight swapped in place of the old open bearings.

The short answer is it doesn’t have or need one – I took the gearbox out a couple of days ago
What lead me to think it was the pilot bearing was the noise was only apparent when the clutch was fully depressed so wasn’t the release bearing and I have had several old triumphs with the same noise which was the pilot or in the case of the Triumphs the spigot bush (phosphor bronze plain bush)
My suspicions changed when my daughter (it’s her car) told me she was struggling to get it into gear
What was actually wrong was one of the three straps that locates the pressure plate in the cover plate had snapped (2004 and only covered 63K) allowing the pressure plate to flop about resting on the driven plate making a rattling noise when the clutch was fully depressed
So all sorted thanks for all your input

Thanks for the update.

The Fiat clutch can do strange things when getting old. Some refuse to disconnect so gears can't be selected, some will fall apart (as yours has), mine had a delayed action making pulling away a hit or miss affair - easy to stall or spin the wheels.
Slipping clutches seem quite rare, though others may know different.