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Old 21-01-2018   #31
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Re: Twinair cold start problem, HELP!

Quote Originally Posted by Mercky View Post
The wrong oil was put in my TA at its first service and it was really rough at start up, fairly sure it was 5w
I've attached viscosity diagrams for the two oils.

At startup temperatures, the difference in viscosity is the equivalent of about a 6C difference, so an 0W performs exactly the same way as a 5W would if it were 6C warmer.

I'd be interested to know at what temperature folks were seeing problems. If it only happened on very cold days, and went away on slightly warmer ones, then there could be something in it.

But if an 0W oil really is the answer, everyone would be having problems at -5C, and we're just not seeing that.
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Old 21-01-2018   #32
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Re: Twinair cold start problem, HELP!

True but Iím only going by what I experienced, it ran ok when warmed up a bit, it was around Jan three years ago so probably around 6 degs outside, ran perfectly when changed to 0w
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Old 21-01-2018   #33
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Re: Twinair cold start problem, HELP!

Quote Originally Posted by jrkitching View Post
I've attached viscosity diagrams for the two oils.

At startup temperatures, the difference in viscosity is the equivalent of about a 6C difference, so an 0W performs exactly the same way as a 5W would if it were 6C warmer.

I'd be interested to know at what temperature folks were seeing problems. If it only happened on very cold days, and went away on slightly warmer ones, then there could be something in it.

But if an 0W oil really is the answer, everyone would be having problems at -5C, and we're just not seeing that.
In a system so sensitive to oil flow there is enough of a difference for it to be discernible at those lower temperatures. The time it takes for the oil to get up to an optimum working temperature - might not be a big deal on one cold start, but maybe many cold starts over a period of time? It would also be interesting to see how the two compare after several months of going through that cycle - does the viscosity change as the oil degrades?
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Old 21-01-2018   #34
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Re: Twinair cold start problem, HELP!

Quote Originally Posted by Mercky View Post
True but I’m only going by what I experienced, it ran ok when warmed up a bit, it was around Jan three years ago so probably around 6 degs outside, ran perfectly when changed to 0w
For sure, you can only speak for what you've found.

How does it run on 0W when the temperature is 0C? (at 0C, 0W oil will have the same viscosity as 5W oil at 6C).

Quote Originally Posted by JCarp16 View Post
In a system so sensitive to oil flow there is enough of a difference for it to be discernible at those lower temperatures. The time it takes for the oil to get up to an optimum working temperature - might not be a big deal on one cold start, but maybe many cold starts over a period of time? It would also be interesting to see how the two compare after several months of going through that cycle - does the viscosity change as the oil degrades?
You'll definitely get less engine wear at startup using a 0W oil, and the effects will be cumulative. I'd certainly want to use an 0W30 if I owned a TA.

Pushing the engine hard before the oil is properly warmed up is also damaging and the effect is particularly severe when it's cold outside. Starting the engine in winter does more damage than starting the engine in summer.

The TA certainly seems to be an oil-sensitive design and would probably benefit from careful handling, like not using excessive throttle openings or high rpm when it's cold.

This all adds to the riskiness of buying a secondhand TA; you've simply no way of knowing how the previous owner(s) have treated the engine.
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Last edited by jrkitching; 21-01-2018 at 12:28.
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Old 21-01-2018   #35
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Re: Twinair cold start problem, HELP!

Rarely 0C here but there have been a few mornings recently, starts fine but definitely a little chuggier then when warmer
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Old 21-01-2018   #36
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Re: Twinair cold start problem, HELP!

Quote Originally Posted by UFI View Post
Not if it's designed to be checked within 5 mins of shut down. The USA owner's manual for the MA engine states to check within the 5mins. My TA manual makes no such mention, perhaps someone with a newer car can check if it's been updated.

They obviously don't intend for you to wait for all the oil to drain to the sump because that would be completely impractical.
Owners handbook for a UK 2017 500 (p128) advises to check the oil level 5 minutes after engine has stopped for ALL engines so maybe that's where that guidance comes from.

It was -1oC here yesterday morning (-5 overnight) and mine started and ran a treat, even start/stop was faultless.
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Old 26-01-2018   #37
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Re: Twinair cold start problem, HELP!

Thank you to everyone who replied to my issue, I'm going to try new oil and a new actuator filter to see if this fixes the issue.. If I use Mobil one 0-30w would it be as good as the Selenia c3 or is it absolutely necessary to run a twin air on this oil?
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Old 26-01-2018   #38
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Re: Twinair cold start problem, HELP!

Quote Originally Posted by Robt1970 View Post
Thank you to everyone who replied to my issue, I'm going to try new oil and a new actuator filter to see if this fixes the issue.. If I use Mobil one 0-30w would it be as good as the Selenia c3 or is it absolutely necessary to run a twin air on this oil?
If you're trying to rule out the oil as a cause then it would be wise to use the correct selenia to avoid any doubt, why go to the trouble and expense and then put in a different oil
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Old 02-03-2018   #39
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Re: Twinair cold start problem, HELP!

Hi Everyone,

Just thought I would give you an update on the cold start problem.
I changed the oil and plugs but it was exactly the same, completely stopped working the other day so had it towed to Ancaster Shepperton for diagnostics..

Turns out the problem was the twin air unit which will set me back around £1300 with a bronze service.. not what i needed to hear..

I have a nasty feeling there is a design flaw in the twin air system and this will bite everyone who owns one in the back side at some point of ownership.

Good luck to anyone with a twinair..
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Last edited by jrkitching; 02-03-2018 at 17:05.
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Old 02-03-2018   #40
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Re: Twinair cold start problem, HELP!

Thanks for the update, but sorry you're facing a large unexpected bill.

I've said it before; this isn't exactly a common problem, but it isn't exactly a rare one either.

There were a few reports shortly after the TA was released of these being changed under warranty on some very low mileage cars; it may be that there was some sort of problem with a batch of parts in the early days. Anyone buying an older but low mileage car might want to consider this before purchasing.

TA owners would be well advised to pay particular attention to ensuring the correct oil is used when servicing. It may also help to drive gently until the engine is fully warmed up. After that, it's probably a lottery.

For anyone else reading this later and facing the same issue, you can buy the part here for about £480 after taking the forum discount into account.

If this really does become a common issue as the fleet ages, then aftermarket and refurbished parts may become available at lower prices. In view of the history of premature failures, this isn't a part I'd want to source from a breaker.

£1300 for this, fitted, and a service is probably the going rate for a franchised dealer.
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Last edited by jrkitching; 02-03-2018 at 17:14.
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Old 02-03-2018   #41
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Re: Twinair cold start problem, HELP!

Quote Originally Posted by Robt1970 View Post
Hi Everyone,

Just thought I would give you an update on the cold start problem.
I changed the oil and plugs but it was exactly the same, completely stopped working the other day so had it towed to Ancaster Shepperton for diagnostics..

Turns out the problem was the twin air unit which will set me back around £1300 with a bronze service.. not what i needed to hear..

I have a nasty feeling there is a design flaw in the twin air system and this will bite everyone who owns one in the back side at some point of ownership.

Good luck to anyone with a twinair..
the similar unit for the 4cyl engines.. has a "dealer replacement" rate quite similar..
there is an Indy in Hants that knows a fix..


for the size of your repair quote.. I would be giving them a call

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Old 08-03-2018   #42
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Re: Twinair cold start problem, HELP!

wher i work. if the foult codes is misfires cylinder 1 and 2 , random misfire, we usaly change oil and filter. then give a good test drive and if fault comes back then we yust replace twin air module. become lifter springs inside snaps i half. and intake valves is not opening properly.. I think the problem is dirty oil or lack of oil. The oil change interval is 30k but after 20k engine already have eaten up most of oil. I who'd recommend to change oil every 15k KM
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