General advice about brake flaring tools…

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General advice about brake flaring tools…

Sunroofjo

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Hi All,
I'm having a bit of trouble deciding which brake flaring tool would be the right one to buy.
The last job (subframe bush replacement) went okay but there was a breakage involving a brake pipe thread, and this needs replacing. So, having looked at what's required, I have set off in search of a brake pipe flaring tool and discovered a whole new world out there, some of which looks cheap and nasty and some of which looks proper expensive.
I don't want to waste money buying a piece of crap that won't do the job, and so I wondered if anyone could guide me?
I am currently considering getting one I have seen on amazon, which is a vigor v4416 priced at £44.58. But have no idea if this is a good choice or not.
They have something at screwfix Teng tools flaring set with 10 parts to it, priced at £75 - which is over the budget I have in mind, but sometimes when you go there, they do a LOT of tapping on a computer and offer you a very different price to the one you started with… so I haven't completely ruled that out (yet). I am totally mystified however as to where to go with this, and would be very grateful indeed if anyone could point me in the right direction. :) Thanks! Jo
 
Hi All,
I'm having a bit of trouble deciding which brake flaring tool would be the right one to buy.
The last job (subframe bush replacement) went okay but there was a breakage involving a brake pipe thread, and this needs replacing. So, having looked at what's required, I have set off in search of a brake pipe flaring tool and discovered a whole new world out there, some of which looks cheap and nasty and some of which looks proper expensive.
I don't want to waste money buying a piece of crap that won't do the job, and so I wondered if anyone could guide me?
I am currently considering getting one I have seen on amazon, which is a vigor v4416 priced at £44.58. But have no idea if this is a good choice or not.
They have something at screwfix Teng tools flaring set with 10 parts to it, priced at £75 - which is over the budget I have in mind, but sometimes when you go there, they do a LOT of tapping on a computer and offer you a very different price to the one you started with… so I haven't completely ruled that out (yet). I am totally mystified however as to where to go with this, and would be very grateful indeed if anyone could point me in the right direction. :) Thanks! Jo

Yes, I agree, bit of a jungle isn't it.

Here are the two I own:

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The first one I bought back in the late 60's/early 70's and it still works very well. a modern version seems to be available: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/121917694750

The second - the red handled one - is still available (I've only had it for about 20 years (I think) and it works fine too although I have seen reports of the guide pin, which is quite long, snapping off inside the pipe if you are not careful about removing the die piece as you dismantle it after flaring. I have to say I've not found it a problem. I've only ever flared brake pipes with it and I think it would really struggle with the larger diameters. I wouldn't buy a tool with such a wide choice of pipe sizes again - you just don't need it.

The big draw back with all these cheaper tools is that they work well on copper pipe and fairly well on Cunifer (cupro nickel - which I favour) but are not really up to flaring the steel pipes which are original fitment on the vehicle.

Personally I would steer away from the very cheapest offerings and I have heard that a common design of cheaper tool which holds it's pipe on a "scissors" type clamp can loose it's ability to hold the pipe tightly enough after a bit of use. The tool I would love to own is this: https://www.carparts4less.co.uk/sea...SvywRqsbNs40XJ8USsSovccqwbDotWihoCgI0QAvD_BwE Which can handle steel pipes without sweating, but I could never get "authorization" from my Personal financial advisor AKA Mrs J, to spend that much.

I personally like a hand held tool because you sometimes need to flare an end on the vehicle and if you only have a tool designed to be used in a vice: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BRAKE-PI...UNTED-PROFESSIONAL-BRITISH-MADE-/261943923368 as a lot of the more heavy duty tools are, although not impossible, it's all a bit of a phaf involving large mole grips etc.

Last thing to say I suppose is, now a days mostly the flares are DIN pattern whereas back in my younger days they were all SAE so make sure you buy the correct tool to produce the flare shape you require. - almost certainly it'll be a DIN if you're doing a Fiat, or, for that matter, almost any modern car. However here is one of many threads there have been on the forum which might interest you: https://www.fiatforum.com/panda/464748-sae-din-brake-flares.html. About half way down it I go "off on one" about how my SAE tool seems to work just fine with DIN tube nuts. Might be of interest although, of course, you do things like this at your own risk.
 
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Yes, I agree, bit of a jungle isn't it.

Thank you so very much for this really helpful and instructive guide! It is exactly the sort of information that I was desperate to have.
I will give the whole thing the attention that it deserves in the morning… and then make a decision. I really appreciate you taking the time to talk this through for me, sometimes I get in a bit of a panic - and it never occured to me that this wasn't necessarily a multipla specific accessory, so I didn't in truth check out the whole forum as I probably ought to have… but it's kind of you to explain it again here... :)
Many thanks! Jo
 
Happy to have helped. Most cars now use 4.75 mm diameter tubing (SAE equivalent 3/16") and the flares are the same whether it's a VW, Fiat, Kia or whatever. Citroen were always different (and, I think, old Rolls Royces which used Citroen's fluid suspension components under licence) using 3.5 mm tubing with completely different flares and little rubber seals, but now a days I'm pretty sure they use standard 4.75 mm like everyone else?

Of course you must make your own decision on what to buy but if I were staring out again today and not wanting to spend too much on a din flaring tool I'd be looking very seriously at this one: https://www.frost.co.uk/4-75-mm-din...giqSmnOQrLT0GVjC2fHHGMj2pPj_RzDBoCTicQAvD_BwE

Not perhaps the very cheapest but well priced and being sold by Frost which is a company held in very high regard. It also works on the same principal as the one I've had for so many years which has worked and lasted so well. I was in our local Fiat indy - Harrisons - recently and the vehicle up on the ramp nearest the reception area was having some of it's metal pipes replaced. I stuck my head through the workshop door to chat to one of the chaps and I'd be very surprised if this wasn't the actual tool he was using.
 
I'll second everything PAJ has said here.

Two years ago I replaced a lot of the brake-pipes on a 79 MG Midget I own.
Just trying to determine which was the right flare was difficult enough, then I had to run the gauntlet of trying to find a half decent tool within my budget that could make the correct flare. Definitely choose one that you can use by hand rather than a bench-only-mounted one.

The other thing to consider is the pipe itself. Obviously it has to be the right size. But also, years ago there was a lot of talk about the copper kits out there, but nowadays you have the choice of Copper or Cupro-Nickel.
My choice would be the Cupro-Nickel it's just as corrosion resistant, but it's a bit harder and therefore less likely to get crushed.
I chose this for the MG and everyone I spoke to since, tells me it was the right decision.

I have a simple pipe-bending tool as well but you must make sure it's the right tool for the diameter of pipe that you are using.
Make the bends too sharp and you will risk reducing the internal diameter. I'm pretty certain there is some mathematical formula for finding the minimum bend radius for a given pipe size but I'm afraid I can't help you with that. Just keep the bend radius' large and you shouldn't go too far wrong. Route everything carefully giving consideration to possible chafing and vibration.
 
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I agree with both PAJ and Max, good advice from both.

I 'play' with a lot of different motors and have done since I was a kid (that's a really long time ago :eek: most of my tools are older than me (not quite 'bronze age', but close) anyway, I have 3 flare sets, one is a bench model, excellent for a workshop, no good under the car. The others are similar to PAJ's but I do like the TENG tools, nice quality and useful.
Use Cupro, it's good material that's not difficult to work with - if you've ever re-piped a Citroen you'll know what I mean.
Just make sure you know what you're about to do before you start, work methodically and keep everything clean, this does two things, 1, you wont miss anything out and 2, you won't be working dirty - which I personally don't like.
As for bending your pipe (and you will have to) there's several ways to do this, you could bend it gently round your thumb, it works well on gentle bends, but be careful not to kink the tube, or you could use a tube bender, don't for God's sake get a cheap Chinky piece of junk, it'll frustrate you in no time. If you remove the old pipes with care you can use them as templates for the new ones.
Good luck
 
Many Thanks PAJ, Oletimes and Max! This is all so very helpful. I have to say I chuckled a bit at the 'if you've ever re-piped a citroen' line. :D
I am just adding a photo here, as having read what you've all been saying and I dipped into the thread that PAJ mentioned… (well, tbh that was all a bit beyond me, I'm more the catering staff, than the mechanics depot…)
Thanks hugely for the recommenation of frost parts. I like the look of the company, and the price is right, so that's the plan for tomorrow.
Anway, here's a photo of the underside of the car, where the next job lies. I have been told that the pipe has come adrift and therefore it needs to be rethreaded.
That's what I think is the missin is anyway.
Thanks hugely for all piling in to help, much appreciated. :)
 

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if you've ever re-piped a Citroen you'll know what I mean.

Oh yes! I owned a Dyane for several years when I was young, newly married and broke. In my ignorance, and with the confidence of the young, I set about replacing one of the rear pipes which had been damaged. I bought a reel of the correct 3.5mm tubing and the wee seals and borrowed a flaring tool before I realized the Dyane (and 2 cv) doesn't use flex hoses. instead, to accommodate the suspension arm movement, the pipe is wound round into a coil and "stuffed" inside the tubular hub where the arm pivots (only those who've done it will appreciate how difficult it is to make this from scratch so it fits)

Here is a picture of the pipe: https://the2cvshop.co.uk/product/10015201001530-rear-brake-pipes
In fact I've forgotten most of the fine detail of the job - They say the brain forgets things to protect itself from distress? but I wouldn't be volunteering to do one again.
 
My choice would be the Cupro-Nickel it's just as corrosion resistant, but it's a bit harder and therefore less likely to get crushed.
I chose this for the MG and everyone I spoke to since, tells me it was the right decision.

I agree with you Max. The Kunifer (cupro nickel) option is the best way to go. It's considerably more rigid compared to the copper only pipe. This does make it slightly more difficult to flare - but nowhere near as hard as steel pipe - but the major advantage is that long runs, ie front to rear or across rear axles etc, don't tend to sag so you can use the manufacturers anchorage points. Do this with pure copper piping and after a short while you'll find it's sagging between the support clips! I find you need to roughly double up on clips (ie half the run distance) with long runs of copper pipe and it's a bit of a phaf finding suitable clips and then fixing them to the floor/chassis. Then there's also the fact that pure copper work hardens - I've read that the 10% nickel added to the Kunifer stops this? - so there is a risk (probably quite a small risk though) that a long run of copper, having "waggled about" for a few months, might work harden enough for it to fracture. I was interested to be told, by my American friend who is rebuilding the MK1 Corvette, that pure copper pipe is illegal in his state (and probably the whole of the US) and I've since seen it's illegal in Australia and, I believe, in quite a few other countries too, exactly because they consider this work hardening problem to be significant! The UK seems to be in the minority allowing it's use.

Having said all that I tend to use a combination of both. Always Kunifer for long runs and where possible for shorter ones too but sometimes a short run, perhaps from a flex along a short suspension arm to a wheel cylinder/caliper where a lot of tight bends are called for to avoid hand brake cables and suspension mounts, I would use the pure copper because of it's ease of bending. If worried about flexing I often fit a short length of rubber tubing over the pipe before I flare the ends and fit the tube nuts then position it so I can use a cable tie around it and the suspension arm to secure it against vibration and abrasive wear. My MOT man particularly likes this and has commented on it more than once.

Also worth considering is that the cupro nickel is rated for considerably higher pressures:

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Although I can't see you exceeding the pure copper's limits even in the most dire emergencies? I remember our instructor, back in the '60's telling us how surprisingly high a pressure the human foot can create in the brakes under an emergency stop "over a thousand PSI is quite realistic to expect" said he. So I was a little alarmed to read this: https://www.brakes-shop.com/brakepe... pressures during,2000psi in a maximum effort. However I've been using copper pipe for years and must have fabricated literally miles of replacement pipe from it to say nothing of the fact that it's use is very common and the "industry standard" in all the garages I know and I don't see droves of cars sitting at the kerbside in puddles of brake fluid! So I would use, and will continue to use, pure copper pipes as I described above with Cupro Nickel wherever possible.
 
Realize I've said nothing about bending these pipes, have I? So here I go again!

You might think that in college we were taught to use pipe bending tools, and indeed we were, but our instructor was very keen that you learn how to bend pipes just with your bare hands with, perhaps, the assistance of a screwdriver handle. His argument was that once out in the workshop you will make money by undercutting your bonus times. I'm not sure how it works now but back in those days pretty much all jobs would have a "book time". If you did the job in less than the book time and went straight on to another job you could "bank" the "book time" you didn't use. All jobs were "clocked" on the job card so at the end of the day when your cards were added up you might have done 10 hours of "book" time in 8 hours of actual working. Lots of lovely bonus to be had! So we were all keen to learn the quickest way to do it and with brake pipes I found bending round your thumb:

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shown here with a bit of flex representing the pipe, worked well, probably better than a screwdriver handle, I think because your flesh is compressible so tends not to flatten the inside of the bend like a screwdriver handle does. Oh, and you're not going to get far with steel pipes like this! you need a bending tool. But copper works absolutely fine. If the tube kinks you must scrap it.

Probably like most of you guys I've always collected old washers, nuts, bolts, and miscellaneous "useful stuff". I have tins and tins full of them! So later I built dedicated bending tools, here are a couple together with my two favourite pipe bending screwdriver handles:

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Of course when you start doing brake hydraulics seriously you'll all know it's a bit like opening Pandora's box don't you think? In that a whole load of corrosion related problems you've never previously encountered enters your life! Naively you might look at a leaking wheel cylinder when servicing the brakes and think "Ok, there's just a pipe nut and a couple of retaining bolts holding that on, I'll have that changed in a few minutes" Oh foolish one!!! The damned bolts, or one at least, will snap or round off if it's more than about 6 years old (and you can bet it'll be that awkward rearmost one on our Pandas!) and you watch, with horror, as the corroded pipe merrily rotates with the tube nut. So you think "Yikes! better stop and retighten it" only to find the pipe then snaps as you reverse the direction of rotation of the tube nut! Tube nuts corroded into flex hose unions are a pet hate of mine as I'm often hoping to save the flex hose.

So here's a few of my "solutions":

First stop is a good soaking with Plus Gas (my favourite) although my American friend swears by PB Blaster and a light tapping with a small (toffee type) hammer to help it penetrate. It's amazing what 5 minutes of light tapping can achieve, don't dismiss it's efficacy. Then you need to "attack" with a spanner which will properly grip as much of the nut as possible. An open ended spanner is definitely to be avoided on tight nuts/bolts as they just don't get a good enough grip. A 12 point (Bi hex some call it) spanner or socket is only slightly better. You need a 6 point hexagonal spanner or socket. If it doesn't move with this it's not going to. On tube nuts a dedicated spanner designed for the job - a split ring - is the way to go:

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if you are trying to save the pipe but if you are replacing the pipe just cut the pipe off flush with the tube nut and get a hex socket over it. You'll just waste time any other way. If all your efforts go hopelessly pear shaped your last resort is likely to be some sort of wrench. I would strongly advise against the ubiquitous locking wrench (often called a "Mole" - that was the most famous brand) These type of grip definitely have their uses and I must have about 8 or 10 in my tool box of all different jaw shapes, but not here. You need a wrench which will tighten as you apply pressure to it so a Stilson or Footprint type jobbie is what you need. Here's a pic of a mole, in the middle, with the others on either side of it.

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A number of years ago I found one of these:

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in a market in Salisbury town square whilst visiting my daughter. It's a Stanley brand which is not a brand I particularly think of in relation to automotive tools but they make good enough screwdrivers etc. I liked the look of it because it has 3 gripping sides but more importantly, it grips the hex it's on tighter the more pressure you apply to it's handle (on the return stroke it also "jumps" round to the next set of hex flats so, on something like a tube nut it grips extremely well with none of the tendency of a split ring or open ender to splay the jaw flats and you can "ratchet" round a set of flats at a time as you slacken the nut. Each wrench handles a range of sizes too.

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It was actually the biggest one I bought in that market because I wanted to use it on the locking nuts on steering rack track rods - which can be "stupidly" tight and cause open enders no end of problems. Unlike a Stilson, which is what I would often use on tight ones, it doesn't mark the nut faces. It works so well I then bought the other two off a site on ebay, (there are only 3 in the set, each wrench, as I said above, doing a range of sizes. The smallest one is my automatic "go to" now for tube nuts.

Lastly here's a tool I've shown you all before but at that time I hadn't had it or used it much so, apart from having wanted one for some time and being very pleased now I had it, I couldn't really comment on its usefulness. I was a little worried it had been an expensive indulgent purchase which I might not use that often!

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It works in conjunction with an air hammer - just an ordinary one will do

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but the clever bit is that the hex depth inside the socket is quite shallow so when you put a hex into it it stops before the whole hex is inside

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This is critically important because it works by shocking the screwthread of the fixing thus loosening corrosion. You have to bear this in mind when deciding where to use it. Ideally it works very well indeed on brake bleed nipples which is primarily what I bought it for. Look at these pics to see how the nipple sits in the socket:

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and here it is on the nipple of the new cylinder waiting for me to find the will to install it into Becky. Notice the socket doesn't "snug" down completely over the hex head? this is critically important to ensure the hammer vibrations are transferred into the nipple not the casting

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In use you would spray some Plus Gas on the nipple and then assemble the air hammer, driver punch complete with it's handle and suitable sized socket:

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Then put the socket over the nipple and trigger the air hammer. Let it hammer away for a while, I usually give it about 20 secs to start with. Then, quite gently, try applying a turning force with the wrench handle. Stop well short of what you would judge a shearing force to be if the nipple doesn't move and carry on with a bit more hammering. The most I've had to hammer for so far is about a couple of minutes (that seems like forever when you're actually doing it) but you must resist applying too much turning force and snapping the fixing due to impatience. Keep hammering and it will slacken in the end - at least every one I've used it on so far has! Its absolutely "magic" on bleed nipples (for which it's specifically intended) but I've also removed a tube nut after I'd sawn off the pipe which i didn't think had the slightest chance of coming out and so saving an otherwise good cylinder. Normally in a situation like that, where I wanted to save the cylinder but couldn't move the tube nut I would take the cylinder off the backplate and clamp the stub of the tube nut in my vice then rotate the cylinder to get the remains of the tube nut out but if the tube nut is that corroded there's a good chance the cylinder retaining bolts will be too so you're making problems by trying to undo them. Just cutting the tube off and "attacking" the otherwise undamaged hex on the tube nut with this tool almost guarantees it'll undo - and the cylinder stays where it is! In fact It works on anything where the vibratory force is being applied directly through the fixing to the screwthread. So brake parts as mentioned above but also a nut on an exhaust manifold or a bolt screwed into a casting - I'm thinking up new situations for it all the time. The socket range that comes with it is quite limited but, as long as you are working with a flat headed fixing (like a hex headed bolt for instance) you can just pop a nut or two inside a standard socket so the force is applied to the fixing through the nuts not through the outside of the socket to the casting as would happen if you didn't put the nut spacers inside the socket. What it's not going to work on would be the sort of situation where a nut is on the other side of a chassis member and you can only shock the bolt head. Or perhaps a bolt screwed through a suspension mount through the chassis into a captive nut - I think all you'd achieve would be to break the captive nut free! So you definitley have to apply the "little grey cells" but, used intelligently it's a wonderful tool.

Here's a video of this remarkable tool in operation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sf_mUSgkZbw
 
Here I am again! Just a wee tip, which I'm sure some will know but others may not?

If you are fitting a solid pipe - such as we've been talking about above - to an "immovable", and sometimes quite inaccessible, object like a fixed wheel cylinder it can be very difficult to get the thread of the tube nut started off in the wheel cylinder's threaded hole. You really need to get it screwed in a couple of turns by hand before you go anywhere near it with a spanner otherwise there is a very real chance you will get it cross threaded and damage, maybe beyond repair, the screw threads in the cylinder.

To give yourself a bit of leeway leave the cylinder fixings really slack so you can wiggle the cylinder around in relation to the backplate. Unless you've made a complete "Horlicks" of making and bending your new pipe, there's a very good chance you'll get it in smoothly with this method. Alternatively, for even more "wiggleability" if the other end of the pipe is going to be easy to fit, perhaps into a well exposed flex hose junction, then leave that end undone and fit the cylinder end first coming back to the flex hose junction last. This can often work if you are only changing a pipe but not a cylinder and you are worried about seized fixings on the cylinder which would be better left alone.

Just thought I'd throw that in because I couldn't tell you how many times I've seen a "weekend grease monkey" or even an apprentice, experiencing frustration and wasted brake pipe and fittings over this "problem". After you've done a few you definitely get "the feel" for a tube nut which is going to cross thread and one which is going in "nicely"
 
PAJ you should be a Doctor, I thought I was going doo-lally but I'm not!

Of late I have a bad time remembering anything and thought I was going totally crazy...

BUT! Dr PAJ has come up with a very plausible diagnosis.

It's only my decrepit old brain protecting itself against all the madness of the past. . . .

When my mates told me I must be nuts to re-pipe first a DS19, then a 21, a 21 Safari and dozens of Zantia's, I thought they were being 'mates' and having a chuckle or maybe I was too full of youthful confidence to care.

I always made my own pipes up, and so would you if you ever went to Citroen and wasn't sitting down when you asked for the price of the factory made pipes, the shock might end your mechanical career.

Too many years and too many re-piped Citroens later I think I need all the grey matter guard I can find - it'd be nice to remember why I came down to the shed tho.
George
 
Of late I have a bad time remembering anything and thought I was going totally crazy...
Too many years and too many re-piped Citroens later I think I need all the grey matter guard I can find - it'd be nice to remember why I came down to the shed tho.
George

George, I bow down to you! I only ever worked on one "big" Citroen. It was one of the big DS's and the boss was charging less than the Citroen dealer to replace the spheres. Still, I'm sure knowing him, making big bucks out of it though! The workshop foreman was actually doing the job and I was "assisting" I don't remember all that much about it but do remember we had quite a bit of bother getting the spheres to slacken for removal and we ran over into the next day because we had leaks to sort after we fired her up again. Oh, and it was the first "hydraulic" Citroen I had ever driven. The foreman let me take it on the test drive with him in the passenger's seat and I almost put him through the windscreen the first time I touched the brake! A quite weird and somewhat underpowered car to drive was my impression. I was fascinated by the power self centering steering! Vowed I would never own one and I'd hide in the loo if I ever saw one come into the workshop until the job card had been issued.

Again sir, maximum respect to you!

Ps my latest forgetful trend is to forget where I put the spanner down that I had only just been using. I now divide jobs up into "chunks" because I daren't let a job go unfinished overnight or I forget if I've tightened this bolt or that fixing next morning. Wouldn't be the first time I've called one of my children back because I couldn't remember fully tightening wheel nuts (usually just on one wheel - I remember 3 but not "that one". Of course it's always tight but I just can't be sure, better safe than sorry though. Mrs J says she thinks I should give it up all together but it keeps me fit and active and gives me something meaningful to do. I am slowing down now though and side stepping the heavy lifting (gearboxes etc)

Kindest regards
Jock
 
PAJ, Sounds like you and I could spend a quiet week 'telling stories' and not be bored about it. I must admit I didn't have it all my own way with the first DS I did. If I remember right the unions were 8mm and made from butter - thats how strong the bloody things appeared and twisted pipes, it was only the intervention of my Father's friend that put me right - 'They're easy mate, you ain't gonna use 'em again are you'? 'Er, no...' 'Well make life easy for yourself and warm 'em up with your blow lamp' (Remember the old petrol blow lamps?) And as soon as I followed his sound advice the job became a breeze, you can even get away with reusing the unions if you're not too gung-oh with the blow lamp. It's easy to replace that little rubber ring that gets cooked.
Those spheres were horrible, my favourite trick was to use a 36" stilson, (scaffolding pipe extension optional) it still might need a little 'hot spanner' persuasion.
I thought it was only me in the 'did I do all the wheel nuts' club haha. My present pet GRRR now is (like you) trying to find whatever I have just put down, or trying to remember why I came down to the garage or shed - or even better - finding out that having spent 2 hours making something in my 'wood-shed' only to find the very same article leaning on the shed wall behind the bandsaw, you really don't want to hear my fluent french on these occasions.
Still, it's a chuckle after a cuppa and a calm down.
My daughter has just turned 18 and she's a little diamond - always checking on me to make sure 'I'm not being silly again' Wifey gave up and just lets me get on with it - she says 'you always look content while you're busy so I leave you alone'.
Anyway, enough rabbit I've got things to forget, later people.
George
 
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I thought it was only me in the 'did I do all the wheel nuts' club haha. My present pet GRRR now is (like you) trying to find whatever I have just put down, or trying to remember why I came down to the garage or shed - or even better - finding out that having spent 2 hours making something in my 'wood-shed' only to find the very same article leaning on the shed wall behind the bandsaw, you really don't want to hear my fluent french on these occasions.
Still, it's a chuckle after a cuppa and a calm down.
My daughter has just turned 18 and she's a little diamond - always checking on me to make sure 'I'm not being silly again' Wifey gave up and just lets me get on with it - she says 'you always look content while you're busy so I leave you alone'.
Anyway, enough rabbit I've got things to forget, later people.
George

Sorry folks if this is now straying too far from the thread topic but it fits in with the way the last few posts are heading.

It does sound very much like we are "kindred spirits" George and I get the feeling there are a few other contributors on here we could include in our tea party! I've always been one for taking a quick walk round the house before going up to bed. Works out well because Mrs J is finished in the bathroom by the time I come up. I start at the back door and take a "keek" through the inside garage door to see the outside door is locked (garage in bottom of house) then check cooker, fridge and other electrics in the kitchen are all ok. Into the lounge/diner to check tv and other electrics are safe then downstairs loo and front door locks. By the time I've done all this I sometimes have to go back to the garage or back door because I can't remember checking them! I know in my mind that they will be secure because I check them this way every night, but I can't go up to bed without the reassurance of another quick glance! I dread to think what I may be like in a few years time!

I've always been a very "busy" person. I like to fix things myself and don't like to have to employ someone else as I've had disasters in the past where the person just didn't fix things properly. Over the years I've built up a very comprehensive mechanics tool kit - it was my trade after all, for a lot of my working life - but I also have boxes full of general DIY tools, carpentry, plumbing, electrical and gardening. There's not much I probably couldn't mend but I find it's me that's now the limiting factor! The trouble with being old and forgetful is that, with all these tools, I find myself "discovering" tools I haven't seen for years sometimes, in the most unexpected places in the "wrong" boxes. Always nice though to come across an "old friend". Sometimes I'll see a tool whilst browsing ebay and think "I must get one of those" only to realize, after a few minutes, that I've already got it but in an earlier "incarnation"

When I was younger I was always busy and working. I've nearly always had something going on in addition to my main job. For instance for years I ran evening classes in welding and car repair and maintenance in addition to my day job in the garage. Now I'm older I have come to the conclusion that what life is really all about is your family and especially children. Mrs J and I have 3 lovely, now grown up, children who have given us 5 (so far) wonderful grandchildren to play with. I count myself as extremely fortunate that wee all get on very well together and all three of my children's families get on too - in fact they all go away together every spring to a big old house in the lakes and go hill walking etc together. I absolutely live for the grandchildren and like nothing better than to snuggle down on the couch with one, or more, snuggling in to me on each side whilst either we watch something on the TV or I read a book to them - gardening is good too, my 7 year old granddaughter loves mowing the lawn with me. What a truly lucky chap I am. Of course we haven't been able to do this for some time now because of this damned virus and I miss it dreadfully. I also now realize what I missed with my own kids when they were young as I was always working and, when they were young, they would be in bed by the time I got home. I try to justify this by assuring myself that I've always been a "good provider" but somehow I think that sounds a bit "lame"?
 
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