Technical Advice on Clutch,DMF and DPF

[Hulk83]

Hi all,

This is my second post on here so go easy.

I have a 06 1.9 multi jet and have few issues with it. The car has now 107k miles on clock and have on going problems for some time with DPF filter. I have purchased a new one but yet to fit. Hopefully this solves this issue. I have never seen the DPF light illuminate however. - Would this need an oil change at the same time?

My next concern is the clutch, it does not engage well in reverse and when driving struggles to get into gears a little. - It now is making a kind of hybrid sound when accelerating and when you disengage the clutch a kind of grinding sound.

First question is any idea on what the hi pitch sound could be? Did think of perhaps the gear bearing and would I need to change the dmf at same time. - I would not do this myself so if someone could give me a link or cheapest price estimate to replace this would be helpful.

Lastly, the car has corrosion on subframe around rear right bump stop and this has now dropped.(MOT failure) - needs removing from spring but seems to be a common problem judging by cars I have seen at scrap yard.

I have spent alot out on car over past year on new brakes, new battery,
new tyres and egr valve. It has also had new spark and glow plugs.

Am now at cross roads on if to get it fixed or just sell it as feel it is becoming a money pit. need a six seater though as family of six.

Any help would be much appreciated.

Thank you.

 

[shedenvy]

Hi,
What problems have you had with the DPF to date?
Sometimes even after fitting a new filter a vehicle will need a service regeneration to ‘baseline’ the system. This can be performed using a full copy of MultiScanECU, though admittedly I haven’t done it myself. Normally it would involve some driver instruction to raise the idle speed to something like 2000rpm – it’s all done stationary.
The oil change physically may or may not be required – when was the last time it was changed? The critical thing with DPF burdened cars is that the oil degredation counter needs to be reset after every oil change. When the DPF goes through a regeneration (either service or scheduled) the engine goes into a different operating mode to try and bring the DPF temperature up to 600+ deg C to burnt he trapped soot out of the filter. A side effect is that diesel from the injectors is washed down the bores into the oil. After a lot of regens the diesel content in the oil will risk damage to bearings etc so the ECU models and monitors this effect. Once the oil is degraded, it will prevent the car doing any more regens. The DPF will eventually block.
So in summary, you can fit the replacement DPF but unless you reset the degredation counter (and possibly perform a service regen), you’ll be stuck with a blocked DPF sooner or later. To give you some idea, my Multijet was doing a regen through normal mixed driving every 450 km.

Clutch dragging and the noise when ‘disengaged’ (do you mean clutch pedal down?) would be the clutch release bearing worn. It will get more & more difficult to change gear until it’s practically undriveable. Only fix is replacement. Though it may not be faulty the clutch should probably be replaced at the same time. Some people would argue to replace the DMF also but unless you’re getting knocking noises or vibration when pulling away I would save yourself the money and only replace if it’s definitely broken on disassembly.
The additional ‘hybrid’ noise may be a bearing in the gearbox. Does the pitch of the noise increase with road speed or with engine speed? During the clutch change it’s likely you’ll have to change the gearbox oil which may help if you currently have low gearbox oil. Sometimes Multi gearboxes leak on the end plate which is visible from the wheel arch. If the gearbox looks brown & oily instead of silver & dry then it’s possible your level is low.
Afraid I can’t help with the subframe. Any pictures of the extent of the rust?

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Hi all,

This is my second post on here so go easy.

I have a 06 1.9 multi jet and have few issues with it. The car has now 107k miles on clock and have on going problems for some time with DPF filter. I have purchased a new one but yet to fit. Hopefully this solves this issue. I have never seen the DPF light illuminate however. - Would this need an oil change at the same time?

My next concern is the clutch, it does not engage well in reverse and when driving struggles to get into gears a little. - It now is making a kind of hybrid sound when accelerating and when you disengage the clutch a kind of grinding sound.

First question is any idea on what the hi pitch sound could be? Did think of perhaps the gear bearing and would I need to change the dmf at same time. - I would not do this myself so if someone could give me a link or cheapest price estimate to replace this would be helpful.

Lastly, the car has corrosion on subframe around rear right bump stop and this has now dropped.(MOT failure) - needs removing from spring but seems to be a common problem judging by cars I have seen at scrap yard.

I have spent alot out on car over past year on new brakes, new battery,
new tyres and egr valve. It has also had new spark and glow plugs.

Am now at cross roads on if to get it fixed or just sell it as feel it is becoming a money pit. need a six seater though as family of six.

Any help would be much appreciated.

Thank you.

I'm puzzled when you say you've DPF problems but no lights lit? Perhaps it's a corrosion issue rather than concerning regen etc?

Without hearing and driving the vehicle trying to diagnose your clutch related problem is difficult but Dual Mass Flywheels are often at fault and it would not surprise me to find this is your problem. You're probably only going to find out by removing the gearbox and examining it. Having done so, if there is even the slightest suspicion of it being the problem, it will need to be replaced. I've not done one on a Fiat but you can expect to part with north of £1'000p to have one done on a typical VAG vehicle.

The other "stuff" you've done -Brakes, Battery, Tyres, even EGR valve and glow plugs (spark plugs? on a diesel?) are the sort of normal service type things to be expected at your mileage. I think also that once you are past 100'000 miles you can expect DPF problems but It's difficult to predict as it's so dependent on useage. My boy's Fabia blew it's out at 95'000 miles.

Now you seem to be into corrosion related issues too. When you think about all of this, particularly the likely cost of sorting the clutch (if that's what's wrong) and the fact you haven't yet fitted the particulate filter - I bet that cost a "bob" or two? but maybe you could return it and get most of your money back or sell it on? - I think, unless the rest of the vehicle is in very good condition, I would be thinking it's time to part company? Assuming, of course, that you can afford to replace it with something in much better condition? No point in just swapping one bundle of problems for another!

What ever you end up doing, good luck with it. Do let us know what you decide won't you?
Regards
Jock

PS. just read shedenvy's post (I was writing this as he answered) He makes a very good point about resetting the degredation counter. If this is not done all sorts of DPF/oil change problems will crop up. It can only be done with the right electronic "gear" such as Multiecuscan. Some smaller workshops may very well not have this - indeed may not even be aware of the need to do it! As regards changing the oil. My opinion is, unless it looks really clean just do it anyway. Compared with the cost of the whole job some new oil is not going to break the bank?

 

[shedenvy]

I read back on your previous posts and found the stuff about DPF blocking.

Yeah as I said before the oil degredation counter needs to be reset - I thought you could ONLY do it with MultiECUScan but others might be available.

Try the search button and there'll be a link of how to get it. From memory I paypal'd a polish guy €50 and got the full copy.

Two things to consider from your previous thread that other people highlighted:
Are the cars sensors telling you lies - temperatures / pressures.
Does your driving cycle suit a Diesel car with a DPF?

Short drives that barely get the engine up to temp are not suitable for DPFs. if your mileage is low, why not consider a petrol 1.6?

 

[Hulk83]

Thanks shedenvy and Pugglt Auld Jock for your quick replies.

My friend is a mechanic so has diagnostics kit and has helped many times.

I have found the DPF to get blocked regularly and has had a forced regen many times. Currently its blocked in Limp mode.

Im guessing this has made the oil degraded? When i bought the car the oil light flashed and this was reset upon oil change. - Guessing it would be worth changing the oil at the same time?

On the dash is a dpf light. - on start up it lights up to check everything but never seen it on any other time? only time ive ever felt the car doing a regen is when I changed the glow plugs and driving back from garage i could tell.

The particular filter I paid £190 for and have it now in possession. - I plan to fit tomorrow.

The hybrid whirling sound the pitch increases with engine speed. and can hear it more so through lower gears. - Is it easy to top up gear box oil?

Dont have any pictures to hand on sub frame but basically corroded around cup which holds bump stop in. everything seems ok the last time I looked.

Body wise the car is good and everything works just a few mechanical problems. Im guessing that the best thing to do is fit the DPF, change oil and oil filter and the take clutch apart and see damage extent of DMF etc.

Just think that even if i was to sell i would not get much for it with engine management light on and dodgy clutch.

As you mentioned Jock, the thing is that if you sell and buy another second hand car you will get problems. This one I know the issues.

possibly would be better to get a 1.6 petrol or petrol engine. Didnt even know about what a dpf was until I bought this car.

 

[shedenvy]

Whiring in every gear and increasing pitch with engine speed may be the main input shaft bearing. You can buy bearing & seal kits off ebay but it might be more sensible to go with a second hand box. My first multi made a lovely racket and was quoted a s/h box for about £350 fitted from DA Motors in wickford.
Topping up the gear oil is easy if you have a 12mm hex bit and a suitable socket set. They're bloody tight so you do have to hang off it a bit. It's located about half way up the height of the 'box on the side that faces the front bumper. Access is pretty good if you crawl under the car. When you buy the gearbox oil it comes with an extending nozzle to make squeesing the bottle to fill from underneath easier.

Getting back to the DPF, I've read threads where people thunk they are resetting the service indicator but the oil degredation counter has not been reset.
Good luck fitting tough and show us pics as you go.

 

[Hulk83]

Thanks for all your help and info

The gearbox oil, i may get that done also tomorrow by garage as will be on the ramp getting other bits done.

once he has fitted the dpf i will get him to regen it and also look for this oil degradation counter on his system. It should have it as cost a few £1000's

Regarding the oil degradation counter, do you know if this can be done over the alfaobd app on android phone considering buying that with blue-tooth elm 27 dongle for myself.

 

[chris3234]

When you fit a new dog you need to tell the car it has had a new dpf fitted so it will adapt to the change in pressure inside the unit

 

[MultipleMultis]

Quick one not read fully.
Clutch could just be bleeding the hydraulics to slave cylinder. there are posts on here about it in last year.
2 bleed points, second one on bulkhead if it is not clearing.
I have had issues with 2 multiplas where hard to get 1st and reverse especially in cold weather, and both run fine now.

Hope it is simple.

 

[Hulk83]

Quick one not read fully.
Clutch could just be bleeding the hydraulics to slave cylinder. there are posts on here about it in last year.
2 bleed points, second one on bulkhead if it is not clearing.
I have had issues with 2 multiplas where hard to get 1st and reverse especially in cold weather, and both run fine now.

Hope it is simple.

Thanks for the info. - Small update is I have dropped a car off garage. He has put up on ramp and topped up gear box oil.

Main oil is being drained off and changed and DPF fitted today. Also, looked at sub-frame. - Looks OK apart from rust around the cup where bump stop was held in. This could be fabricated and re-welded to hold this bump stop back in place.

Noticed some oil leakage which could be seals around gearbox.

Before I proceed with looking at clutch i want to see how new DPF holds up.

Keep you posted.

Many thanks for all your feedback and advice. When the car does work it is a good car to drive and would be a shame to get rid of it.

 

[MultipleMultis]

Rear subframe can look a lot worse than they are - very bad and rusty. But they are pretty solid when they are wire brushed down and given a coat of something.

 

[MultipleMultis]

Not sure if this resets the DPF counter linked to the oil change but did not have to do this on mk1 without DPF filter.

Oil reset on MK2 that I found on here and used

1-turn on the ignition key,
2-press the gas pedal and hold it,
3-press the brake pedal 7 times without releasing the gas pedal,
4-keep pressing the gas pedal for 60sec.
5-Release the gas pedal and turn of the ignition key,
6- Wait for 60sec.
Then turn on the ignition key and start the engine.
Check if the service/oil change light turned off.

 

[MultipleMultis]

Regarding the oil degradation counter, do you know if this can be done over the alfaobd app on android phone considering buying that with blue-tooth elm 27 dongle for myself.[/QUOTE]

Does anyone have a view on this ?? I monitor my BMW with phone and elm 27 dongle and it is pretty good. That particle filter is on 185k miles!
Also been looking at alfaobd to keep an eye on regenerations and pressure drops

Else with the full PC software (name escapes me) what adaptor is needed to hook up to PC. I seemed to go round in circles trying to find what to use to hook up to a windows 7 PC

 

[Hulk83]

Small update.

Got the car back now. Oil degradation was 6% prior to change and now 98%. with new oil. Oil service light reset.

New DPF fitted. Checked and reading ok.

Gear box oil topped up.

only thing noticed driving back to work is revs slipping which is either oil on clutch or dmf. Clutch is probably on way out now but considering going the slave cylinder route first.

Have kept old DPF as considering bash it out just in case this one plays up.

Have a elm27 dongle on way so will download alfaobd app to check status over weekend

 

[widemouthfrog]

How far from the floor is the clutch pedal when the clutch is fully disengaged?

 

[Hulk83]

How far from the floor is the clutch pedal when the clutch is fully disengaged?

Hi, you need to push the clutch pedal right to floor to full disengage.

Clutch seemed to be slipping at higher revs as when you the press the accelerator pedal hard the revs increase but speed doesnt and plays catch up.

Either that or dmf is on way out.

 

[shedenvy]

I'd say your clutch is worn (slipping) and also the release bearing is shagged (noise and dragging).

 

[widemouthfrog]

In that case, I'd lay a sizeable wager that the clutch is goosed. When I first bought mine, it had very similar symptoms and I threw £460 at my local Fiat main dealer to have both the master and slave cylinders replaced (the dealer said it was probably the master that was on its way out and I said they may as well do the slave while they're there.
End result? Two weeks later I took the car to my local Fiat/Alfa specialist to have a new clutch fitted. Changing the cylinders made not a jot of difference. If your clutch is slipping as well (mine wasn't, just couldn't disengage the clutch) then both the release bearing and the friction plate have probably had it. The fingers on the pressure plate will also be well worn, which contributes to the lack of useful pedal travel. When the release bearing starts dragging, that wear gets worse rapidly.

 

[Hulk83]

I'd say your clutch is worn (slipping) and also the release bearing is shagged (noise and dragging).

Ha ha I like your honesty! Will leave it slightly longer until completely wrecked.


Want to make sure the dpf is ok first before I go any further.

 

[Tubthumper73]

Sounds very similar to mine, which was diagnosed as a weak pressure plate too. As my bodywork isn't particularly good with a worn interior to match I'm playing writeoff-roulette with the clutch,DMF and rear trailing bearings !