General My clutch master cylinder spring has broke!

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General My clutch master cylinder spring has broke!

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Dec 16, 2008
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Having read all that the net has to offer regarding these problems, I felt fairly confident about the task.
As jobs go, it's not a difficult job, but it is a bit fiddly.
Here's my take on it and a few addendum's.
1, Remove pin holding pedal and pushrod - you may need to remove the cover box to the left, it makes access easier.
2, Under the bonnet: I removed the air box, air pipe and battery - but it has been done without battery out (it's easier, because it provides a bit more space)
3, Removed 2x 13mm bolts on clutch slave.
4, lift out slave and turn it so you can use a 3/8 extension bar as a push bar.
5, I pushed the slave in but it wasn't pushing the master cylinder out far enough (as it does- according to the accounts I've read) instead, my brother pushed the master in gently, then I pushed the slave in as far as it would go to get the master at maximum out, then let the slave back slowly to fill it with fluid. Then I removed the fluid reservoir cap and topped it to overflowing and fitted a piece of folded plastic over the hole to stop the fluid from overflowing when the slave was pushed in again - so I'd get maximum movement at the master.
6, All set up, I pushed in the slave and the master popped out easily.
7, With my magnetic pick-up tool fished out the broken spring - it came out in 3 pieces.
Tomorrow I am going to get a replacement spring - fortunately I live in the Midlands and there are at least 7 or 8 places locally that either sell or manufacture springs.
I'll continue the saga when I have the new spring.
Note: I intend to get a handful of the springs so anyone needing one just shout and for cost of spring and post I'll send one - saves buying 70 quids worth of master just for the spring.
George
 
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I'll be up for a spring, or failing that even the measurements (O.D., wire gauge, approx. number of turns and a guess of the original length) would be very useful. There are loads of places selling springs on ebay.
 
Good stuff. I might be doing this myself shortly. The magnetic pick-up tool is a great idea, and the tip to push out the MC internals.
 
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OK, for anyone who has access to DECENT springs - don't buy crap springs, they'll break in no time (most of the cheaper metal parts, including springs are made from something like EN88A, which is a soft steel with a low carbon content, maybe as low as 1 or 2%, that's been case hardened, it will spring but because only the outside 5 or 6 thou is actually tempered, they are brittle).
Better if you can deal with the guys who actually make the springs, cuz they know what they're talking about.
The dimensions of the spring I removed was measured by my friend at Dependable Spring in Wolverhampton.
Length: 60mm/ Dia: 15mm/ Wire Gauge: 1mm/ Turns: 11
The only springs available today was 60x15x1x13 so the only significant difference is the compressed length, which went from 24mm to 25mm, so in other words, nearly nothing. By the way, the compressive effort of the Fiat springs was measured at 1kg per turn, which means the springs are VERY hard - NOT very springy.
Sorry for the geeky blurb - it's the engineer in me :rolleyes: George
 
Owing to outside influences, I didn't get the Bug finished today, I did get the new spring fitted, it's a perfect fit and I partly bled the system, I should have got a bottle of DOT4 in DUH!.
Hopefully job done tomorrow (later today, it's 1/4 to 4am and I've not long got back) First a bit of shut eye.
Night Night
George
 
Can anyone diagnose this... when I press my clutch pedal there is slack/no resistance for about an inch then I meet resistance. The rod and piston must be moving an inch down the MC before anything happens... Anything to worry about or is this normal? Clutch is working OK. Slave cylinder is new, MC at least 4 years old. I bled the clutch for the first time in years I think last week or week before (memory's going).

I've bought a Valeo MC and intend to swap the guts sometime, but it's not a priority as I've got MOT stuff to sort out first.

RSVP
 
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That's where mine started, then it got worse. When I couldn't get any gears I knew it must be time to have a look - see, qwik as lightnin! :cool:

You will probably be ok for a while but I smell a MC spring in the air.

I've learnt a lot over the last few days about this god forsaken clutch system. I'd love to see it's designer do one. :rolleyes:

Back to my clutch...
Bought some DOT4 (by the way it was £13.00 at Wolverhampton Car Spares for 5Lts)
Got all set-up with the Ezebleed kit, pedal to the metal, tube onto front tyre (at 18psi) new DOT4 in the bottle and blew a whole bottle full thru the system. Closed it all off, tested the pedal and yep, gotta clutch. Happy days. Disconnected everything and start the motor, = no clutch..........??????????? :cry:
:idea: Then I remembered that bit about the car facing uphill, so, only on the starter, backed it out and did a 3point to back it onto my drive (it's a sloping drive) so now I can start all over again. :bang:
More tomorrow.
George
PS/ I've spoken to to my mate at Dependable Spring, anybody want a MC spring shout and I'll get some in, should cost about a quid each plus post, say 2quid all in. ok. (y)
 
I've learnt a lot over the last few days about this god forsaken clutch system. I'd love to see it's designer do one. :rolleyes:

It's our fault. We drive on the wrong side of the road. The clutch operating system on the LHD Multiplas is much simpler.

As for the springs - yes please, put me down for a couple of them.
 
You will probably be ok for a while but I smell a MC spring in the air.

I've learnt a lot over the last few days about this god forsaken clutch system. I'd love to see it's designer do one.

So would I. For the clutch, and the battery stand, and the cable bracket blocking the upper starter motor bolt, and the... If anyone's taking out a contract on the designer, I'll throw in a fiver...

Spring in the air?? - it's minus 2 where I am, and I'm doing power slides on the hailstones. Thanks for the offer, but I think there's one in the new MC I bought. But if your's are better quality...?

5L of Dot 4! Did you or the motor factor get the decimal point in the wrong place cos' I think the clutch system capacity is about 500ml... or did the motor factor ask you what car you had and when you said a Multi, he said you'll need at least 5 litres... ;) and :confused:. I belt he/she/it sold you a box of old springs too...

wmf - I think I read somewhere that with the LHD model because the clutch pedal is on the same side as clutch it's *wire* operated (must be a pretty short wire too), so nowhere near as troublesome. (Been musing on how to rig up wire operation on my RHD model: sheathed cable like brake cable, pedal end no prob - bracket above pedal for one end, need to *pull* instead of push clutch lever, or pull on a rotating cam to push rod onto clutch lever...?).

Speaking of *unusual* purchases, I've bought a shoe horn (£3-50) from Wilco's to lever the new aux belt onto the tensioner pulley. Will let you know if it works... didn't try it today because the "Mini Beast from the East" (I blame the russians for *everything*) was blowing right up my kilt. Currently waiting for the old belt to snap... at the most inconvenient moment, obviously...
 
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HaHa, be a big clutch for 5lts of DOT4. My bro and I play with a few motors, so I can justify the quantity, the price ain't bad either. Equivalent other marques start at £13.00 a litre, so I've got a cheesy grin for getting a gallon at that price.
I like your take on the wire clutch, didn't the early petrols have cable clutch?
Can't remember, anyway if you crack it, I'd love to see it. It can't be impossible.
George
 
I think if a cable mech for RHD Multis was/is possible, Fiat would have gone with it. There's quite a bit more expense in using hydraulics instead of a cable; their bean-counters would always take the cheaper option.

Fiat could have turned the whole engine/transmission around for us RHD-ers :D. Would have made glowplug changes a lot simpler too. Just the simple matter of making the crank turn in the opposite direction to sort out. Getting at the turbo would be a laugh though.
 
Actually finished my clutch today, what a rotten pig it was to bleed.
Car, nose uphill, jacked up nearside as high as I could get it.
Pressure in tyre 19psi, kit attached, full of new DOT4, tray underneath to catch old oil, release bleed point and blew a whole bottle full thru it.
Brother tried the clutch pedal, 'wow, it's great' he said, ok, close and clip the slave end, take all the gear off. 'Now try it' He said 'where's it gone, there's nothing there'
The slave end was moving about 10mm, but with the kit on it was a maximum movement.
Question: where's me clutch gone - can only be some air stuck in there somewhere.
Started all over again, this time attach all the gear, pedal on the floor, pressurized it to 25psi, open bleed...
This time I told 'our kid' to lift the pedal slowly, then pump it a few times, hold it down, bleed, and repeat until all the fluid was almost used up. ( about 7 or 8 cycles) lock it all up and I have a working clutch but NOT a full clutch. I'm gonna try a vacuum on the slave end to see if I can suck the air out, I'll report back...
George
 
Actually finished my clutch today, what a rotten pig it was to bleed.
Car, nose uphill, jacked up nearside as high as I could get it.
Pressure in tyre 19psi, kit attached, full of new DOT4, tray underneath to catch old oil, release bleed point and blew a whole bottle full thru it.
Brother tried the clutch pedal, 'wow, it's great' he said, ok, close and clip the slave end, take all the gear off. 'Now try it' He said 'where's it gone, there's nothing there'
The slave end was moving about 10mm, but with the kit on it was a maximum movement.
Question: where's me clutch gone - can only be some air stuck in there somewhere.
Started all over again, this time attach all the gear, pedal on the floor, pressurized it to 25psi, open bleed...
This time I told 'our kid' to lift the pedal slowly, then pump it a few times, hold it down, bleed, and repeat until all the fluid was almost used up. ( about 7 or 8 cycles) lock it all up and I have a working clutch but NOT a full clutch. I'm gonna try a vacuum on the slave end to see if I can suck the air out, I'll report back...
George
Try reducing the air pressure you are using .
Yes it can be a pig.
I am concerned the extra 1mm of compressed length of spring is causing problems.
 
From memory 15mm movement at slave cylinder gives good clutch action .
12mm is just about usable with care and a pause before selecting reverse.
 
Strangely, although I could get first and reverse without much problem, there didn't seem to be a 'full' movement at the slave.
Used for a couple of trips and the clutch is as good as it ever was, releasing about half pedal.
So, all good again.
I think it had a bit of air in the system and it was a bit of a pig to shift, I can only surmise it's shifted itself.
The springs are working well and give full travel
ATB
George
p/s = I've ordered a few extra anyway, I'll let you know when they get here, if you want one just shout.
 
Strangely, although I could get first and reverse without much problem, there didn't seem to be a 'full' movement at the slave.
Used for a couple of trips and the clutch is as good as it ever was, releasing about half pedal.
So, all good again.
I think it had a bit of air in the system and it was a bit of a pig to shift, I can only surmise it's shifted itself.
The springs are working well and give full travel
ATB
George
p/s = I've ordered a few extra anyway, I'll let you know when they get here, if you want one just shout.

Hello Oletimer, Do you still have any of these springs?

Alternatively do you have a suppliers name?

Thanks

Andrew
@oletimer
 
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Hi, I'll have to give the shed a look at because I actually gave most of these away. The spring company is based here in Wolverhampton, but because the spring itself is a bit of an odd ball size it was not easy to find. Luckily, they had some that were left over from a project they were working on which were very close to size so I was happy with that. So far I've not had one break since.
As a side note, they tested the OEM spring and found it had been made way too brittle, it was suggested that the makers hadn't taken much care in controlling temperatures when they did the heat treatment.

This suggestion may seem a bit crazy but...

You know if you've done it: Changing the master cylinder is an absolute bitch of a job and I wouldn't want to do it again, it will be easier to buy a complete master cylinder and strip the spring out and use that.

George
 
Hi, I'll have to give the shed a look at because I actually gave most of these away. The spring company is based here in Wolverhampton, but because the spring itself is a bit of an odd ball size it was not easy to find. Luckily, they had some that were left over from a project they were working on which were very close to size so I was happy with that. So far I've not had one break since.
As a side note, they tested the OEM spring and found it had been made way too brittle, it was suggested that the makers hadn't taken much care in controlling temperatures when they did the heat treatment.

This suggestion may seem a bit crazy but...

You know if you've done it: Changing the master cylinder is an absolute bitch of a job and I wouldn't want to do it again, it will be easier to buy a complete master cylinder and strip the spring out and use that.

George

Thanks

My car is a punto. Changing the cylinder is a bit of a job but i dont think as difficult as the multipla is. It is much easier to take the cylinder out than change the spring from inside the car.

Currently I cannot get a master cylinder so i put it all back together again till I can get a spring or cylinder. Bleeding it without the spring was a bit of a job!
 

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