Technical Help! Genius required

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Technical Help! Genius required

millymoon

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Hi, I'm wondering if anyone can help. I have a 2001 1.9TD ELX 105 JTD Multipla which has had various problems and we're now stuck on an issue that I'm hoping someone can help with. :bang: This car had a second hand turbo fitted recently, which I'm advised works, but the turbo does not kick in and the car will not go above 3000 revs. I was advised that there was no vacuum to the turbo actuator, but this isn't as simple as it may appear. If I disconnect the red vacuum tube from the actuator, there is absolutely no change to the revs whatsoever. If I manually push the actuator rod down whilst the engine is running we can get the car to 5000 revs. Upon checking this forum, the rod should move freely and should move down about 10mm when req'd. The rod is quite stiff and when it does move, goes down about 4-5mm but tends to slowly make it's way back up. Can anyone advise what should be happening with this rod. At what point when revving should it go down and when should it stay down and when should it go back up? Is it a tuning issue? or is it possible I need a replacement actuator and the rod is not at fault at all! The problem is, virtually every part to this point has been replaced with new so I'm reluctant to fork out yet again for something that may not need to be replaced. Any help or thoughts AT ALL would be most gratefully received :)
 
EGR, MAF? If the engine isn't breathing properly there will not be sufficient exhaust gases to spool up the turbo...

Just an idea, don't know much about turbos :S Good luck...
 
Hi, I'm wondering if anyone can help. I have a 2001 1.9TD ELX 105 JTD Multipla which has had various problems and we're now stuck on an issue that I'm hoping someone can help with. :bang: This car had a second hand turbo fitted recently, which I'm advised works, but the turbo does not kick in and the car will not go above 3000 revs. I was advised that there was no vacuum to the turbo actuator, but this isn't as simple as it may appear. If I disconnect the red vacuum tube from the actuator, there is absolutely no change to the revs whatsoever. If I manually push the actuator rod down whilst the engine is running we can get the car to 5000 revs. Upon checking this forum, the rod should move freely and should move down about 10mm when req'd. The rod is quite stiff and when it does move, goes down about 4-5mm but tends to slowly make it's way back up. Can anyone advise what should be happening with this rod. At what point when revving should it go down and when should it stay down and when should it go back up? Is it a tuning issue? or is it possible I need a replacement actuator and the rod is not at fault at all! The problem is, virtually every part to this point has been replaced with new so I'm reluctant to fork out yet again for something that may not need to be replaced. Any help or thoughts AT ALL would be most gratefully received :)

have you blanked off that egr valve yet? :)

also dont think youll get an actuator seperately, theyre probably only sold with the turbo
 
Thanks Guys. The EGR is blanked off. I have a new MAP sensor, a new MAF sensor, a new boost solenoid, a new turbo, a new battery only thing left is a new car! :) Seriously going round in circles with this car... :bang: One of the injectors is mis-firing hence the MAF sensor replacement.. made no difference whatsoever! We did think the wastegate may have been stuck closed but this operates ok. Turbo working, just stuck in limp mode with this mis-firing injector. Any other thoughts AT ALL will be most gratefully received :D
 
Thanks Guys. The EGR is blanked off. I have a new MAP sensor, a new MAF sensor, a new boost solenoid, a new turbo, a new battery only thing left is a new car! :) Seriously going round in circles with this car... :bang: One of the injectors is mis-firing hence the MAF sensor replacement.. made no difference whatsoever! We did think the wastegate may have been stuck closed but this operates ok. Turbo working, just stuck in limp mode with this mis-firing injector. Any other thoughts AT ALL will be most gratefully received :D

have you had the codes read with the management lamp on?

has anybody checked that the cat isnt blocked?

why was the MAF sensor replaced because you had an injector misfire? if youve got an injector misfire you need to isolate it by disconnecting each injector in turn. the one which doesnt make any difference is the faulty one. normally itll be the injector gone down in which case new injector or send old for repair/service at diesel specialist. you can check the wiring and ecu with a noid lamp.

be warned if its an injector theyre something like 330 quid each from fiat, think theyre 002's like in my old brava. which means youre probably best off getting repaired. i ended up scrapping my brava!

has anyone checked your throttle potentiometer connections as well?
 
HI, I think the problem I've had is that the car has been looked at by part changers who call themselves mechanics! They've been checking the codes and replacing parts to clear the faults. The last 'mechanic' cleared the faults and returned the car because he had no other idea of how to fix it. :bang: We have checked two of the injectors but the remaining two wouldn't budge and we didn't want to be too heavy handed in pulling them off. A new management code has appeared and my friends husband is bringing his reader tomorrow and hopefully will help us further. But up to now no-one has mentioned any of what you've suggested so it really is appreciated. (y)At least we've got somewhere else to start looking, though not liking the price of a new injector! :( Thanks muchly for your advice. Will keep you posted..
 
CRAP! Not the Cat, not the throttle! :bang: Any other suggestions greatly welcomed as may have to scrap.. :cry: HELP PLEASE!!!!!
 
CRAP! Not the Cat, not the throttle! :bang: Any other suggestions greatly welcomed as may have to scrap.. :cry: HELP PLEASE!!!!!

right, this could be something so simple. so frustrating not to be able to look at the car! :bang:

im still confused as to why you had a MAF replaced to try and cure a misfire?

so first things first, does it still misfire?

if you disconnect the flow meter does it drive okay as mentioned in another thread about same vehicle?

when your ex's mate bought his code reader round, what did it say?

is there an engine management lamp on now?

is the turbo actually boosting? ie if you grab hold of the turbo pipes and get someone to rev it is it boosting either side of the intercooler?

what were the symptoms of the fault in the first place? eg hadnt been running right for a while, engine management lamp just came on, noticed poor fuel consumption, suddenly just stopped revving above 3000 revs etc.
 
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God I hope it's something simple but completely overlooked :( I bought the car cheaply having been advised it only needed a turbo - famous last words! :cry: The old turbo was in the boot when I bought the car so no question of testing or using it. Just bought a used one that had a warranty. When the turbo was replaced the famous overboost code p0236 appeared so my friend's mechanic partner simply replaced every single part that he felt might clear the code. (Maf sensor, Map sensor, overboost valve, battery) Nothing worked. He then took it to Fiat for them to diagnose the fault but after plugging in their code reader they couldn't help at all!! and didn't charge! :bang: So after 3 months of trying he gave up and I took the car to my usual mechanic. He tested the injectors (which are all working) and managed to clear the codes but was unable to fix the car. He feels the entire problem is that there is no vacuum to the turbo actuator and it's either an ECU problem or wiring problem. :cry:The EGR is blocked off and If you disconnect the MAF the car does get it's revs but you get a huge amount of black smoke. The actuator rod works, the wastegate works, the turbo works, we now know the cat isn't blocked and the throttle petentiometer is ok. This really is so frustrating. We know what's working but not what's wrong!! A code has reappeared as the management light has recently come on to advise us to take it to a garage but we were unable to borrow the code reader in the end as he's lent it to a friend and can't currently get it back. Although I just feel it will be P0236!!! On top of this, there is a wiring fault on the car as the battery is draining so we have to keep disconnecting it. I really am beginning to wish I hadn't bought the car!! Seriously we will test any theory you may have about what it could be... :)
 
Regarding the battery draining, my son had the same problem with his Ducato van. After replacing the alternator, battery and starter motor it turned out to be the engine to chassis earth. One new earth strap (£4.50) solved the problem.

Hope this helps.
 
Seriously we will test any theory you may have about what it could be... :)

does the black smoke become less if you drive it though? it may well be that the new one you have is faulty (ive had ones thyat were faulty off the shelf in a fiat box) and the black smoke is a by product of the car running so poorly for so long.

youve definitely, 100pc got a decent vacuum feed TO the overboost valve?

this all seems so random it could be something like a bad earth hence your battery drain fault too.

has anyone checked your earth points?

one thing you could try doing is getting a jump lead and making your own earth betweeen the battery and the engine and see what happens then?
 
Thanks guys, we haven't even considered the earth (y) Will def try that tomorrow. The second mechanic tried another MAF sensor as he felt the new one was a dodgy replica rather than a Fiat part but the problem was the same. As for vacuum to the sensor, I wouldn't swear a 100% there is, simply that i've been told. Is there a simple way of checking this?? We've been promised the loan of a code reader some time this week from another friend and maybe that will shed some light (although I won't hold my breath :() Will test the earth and advise further. Thanks so much for your suggestions. If you can think of anything else, however random, please let me know. :)
 
Thanks guys, we haven't even considered the earth (y) Will def try that tomorrow. The second mechanic tried another MAF sensor as he felt the new one was a dodgy replica rather than a Fiat part but the problem was the same. As for vacuum to the sensor, I wouldn't swear a 100% there is, simply that i've been told. Is there a simple way of checking this?? We've been promised the loan of a code reader some time this week from another friend and maybe that will shed some light (although I won't hold my breath :() Will test the earth and advise further. Thanks so much for your suggestions. If you can think of anything else, however random, please let me know. :)

definately worth trying the earth. think on your model theres one to the gearbox and a couple on the inner wing.

might also be worth checking the earth points inside the car as the ecu is inside on the nearside front a pillar.

P0236 can also be caused by split vacuum pipes, not necessarily a faulty vac solenoid. with the engine running you should have a permanent vacuum to the solenoid, and a switched one coming out of it. if you have no vacuum to the solenoid then theres more than likely a vacuum loss due to a pipe chafed through. seen this quite a bit on stilo's.

have you checked that youre getting a boost in and out of the intercooler? that would cause black smoke if youre not?

this is going to sound really really obvious but has any one checked the air filter?
 
Thanks, I had no idea there were so many earth's on the car! will def be checking them all. (y)
We have checked very carefully for split and chafed pipes and tubing and could see nothing, but we have been limited in how far we can access around the engine, so maybe we should test the vacuum pipes whilst the engine is running and see if we can reach a little bit further..

And I am lost when you mention intercooler and air filter. I had no idea it had an intercooler ans I thought the air filter WAS the MAF sensor :eek: Obviously not.. Where would I be able to locate both of these?? I have located a manual but it's vague to say the least!

Am really appreciating your help with this :worship:
 
Hi,
I have been following your posts and hope you get it sorted. I have attached a file showing the air filter and intercooler, hope they help you.

Just a thought, have you checked the exhaust? if this is blocked ie a failed cat or particulate filter then the turbo/intercooler/sensors/boost will not work correctly as it needs the exhaust to be clear for the inlet side to work effectivly.
You said that Fiat could not find a fault???. Sometimes when you get error codes showing, it is not always that part that has failed. if for example the exhaust is blocked then you would get some boost related problems which may show up as a boost sensor failure but it may be that the sensor has reached the end of its working tolerance that the ecu can work with so it puts up a code that initially makes it look like that part has failed. you have to have a grasp of how the system works to understand where to look and which parts may have caused the code to appear. all too often people take for granted what the code reader says is wrong and change loads of parts which the diagnostic machine says have failed but in actual fact they havn't.
Reading your posts it looks like you have changed most of the parts on the engine related to this fault with no luck. this tells me that it is more of a fundamental fault ie exhaust blocked rather than a sensor. I know this does not fix it for you and its very frustrating but it seems nowadays there are too many people, especially at main dealers that seem to rely upon diagnostic machines ti 'fix' the car for them and usually it turns out to be a fundamental mechanical error that has been overlooked. Start with the basics, get someone who knows how the system works, you have done most of the changing of parts already.
Good luck and let us know how you get on:confused:
 

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Thanks everyone for your suggestions and many thanks for the diagram, really appreciated. (y) Have checked the earthing (no problem), have checked the air filter (all clear), have checked the intercooler (no leaks) and have checked the exhaust (hand to the back - all ok). Still no change :bang: I agree, mechanics are just part swappers, our local Fiat were absolutely useless!! :mad: As the codes were all cleared and only came back once we'd started fiddling with all the other parts trying to rectify the problem, I still strongly feel this is a mechanical issue. I'm sure there is something simple that has just been overlooked - or maybe that is wishful thinking! My usual mechanic will not budge on his insistence of it being a wiring or ECU problem. so, worse case scenario, if anyone does have or know how to get hold of a wiring diagram it really would be appreciated :D Any more thoughts will be very gratefully appreciated. No idea is too stupid!! Will try absolutely ANYTHING :)
 
We did as previously advised and used a jump lead to make an earth between the battery and the engine. No change. I also spoke to my mechanic friend who checked the car last time to ask how to check the earths and he advised me they have all been checked and if the earth to the ecu was faulty the car wouldn't start. I hope he's right, but I have taken him on his word...Thinking about it now though, with all this stuff we have done to the car, we haven't cleared the computer of all codes and maybe we should. :confused:
 
You've really got me worried now :( We were all set to test the earths but had no idea how to do it other than to test your jump lead theory, which is why I rang the mechanic, but he is so convinced it's either the wiring or the ECU that he tends to dismiss other theories. (n) He insists he has checked the earths and they're ok. Please can you advise how we go about this as it's worth us checking even if it's just to satisfy a curiosity....
 
We did as previously advised and used a jump lead to make an earth between the battery and the engine. No change. I also spoke to my mechanic friend who checked the car last time to ask how to check the earths and he advised me they have all been checked and if the earth to the ecu was faulty the car wouldn't start. I hope he's right, but I have taken him on his word...Thinking about it now though, with all this stuff we have done to the car, we haven't cleared the computer of all codes and maybe we should. :confused:

im not sure i agree with the non start thing but i havent got access to a wiring diagram right now so without looking at my disc no comment! can see where hes coming from though but ive been around fiats long enough to know its not necessarily as simple as that! :)

for example, it COULD be an earth/wiring fault in the overboost valve circuit, again no wiring diagram in fromt of me though.

it might be an idea to delete all the codes and see what comes back.

difficult to say over a forum and its hard not to tread on other peoples toes, just a bit wary of you scrapping it and it turns out to be something preventable!
 
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