Dead 100hp panda...

JustApanda · Nov 20, 2019

Hi all,

So yesterday while driving home on the highway and then stopping to turn into a side road. No hooning or unnecessary sport mode action. My check engine light came on with a beep and the car slowly died. I tried starting again but When i turn the key it sounds like the engine itself isn’t turn but rather just the starter swinging? So the sequence of events was slow down at traffic light to turn into side road then slow and turn into another side road, light beep dead. Slight acceleration between each slowing...

What could it be? I saw no smoke or smelled anything burnt or anything worrying just the beep, engine slowly dying and then nothing. The car has water and it has oil. With nothing spewing out or on the ground. I know it could be major like cambelt or something but also hoping its something small. Some insights on what to look for would helpful...

Tia

Justin

JustApanda · Nov 20, 2019

As I suspected its a snapped timing belt guess its rebuild time yay!!

DaveMcT · Nov 20, 2019

Timing belt kit with water pump
https://www.shop4parts.co.uk/?name=store&op=Details&ProdID=13817&sku=253744

Example valves. You may not need a full set. If it has sacrificial rockers you might only need to replace them..
https://www.shop4parts.co.uk/?name=...&term=Fiat_Panda_II_(04_to_09)_1.4_16v_Valves

Head bolts (check if you need them
https://www.shop4parts.co.uk/?name=...m=Fiat_Panda_II_(04_to_09)_1.4_16v_Head_Bolts

Auxiliary belt
https://www.shop4parts.co.uk/?name=store&op=Details&ProdID=3165&sku=42794

Example head gasket. Check with Shop 4 Parts.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GENUINE-FIAT-PUNTO-GRANDE-PUNTO-1-4-1-2-2005-2010-ELRING-Head-Gasket-NEW/123617075238?hash=item1cc826e026:g:H7QAAOSwJiBcTwlF

JustApanda · Nov 20, 2019

DaveMcT said:
Timing belt kit with water pump
https://www.shop4parts.co.uk/?name=store&op=Details&ProdID=13817&sku=253744

Example valves. You may not need a full set. If it has sacrificial rockers you might only need to replace them..
https://www.shop4parts.co.uk/?name=...&term=Fiat_Panda_II_(04_to_09)_1.4_16v_Valves

Head bolts (check if you need them
https://www.shop4parts.co.uk/?name=...m=Fiat_Panda_II_(04_to_09)_1.4_16v_Head_Bolts

Auxiliary belt
https://www.shop4parts.co.uk/?name=store&op=Details&ProdID=3165&sku=42794

Example head gasket. Check with Shop 4 Parts.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GENUINE-FIAT-PUNTO-GRANDE-PUNTO-1-4-1-2-2005-2010-ELRING-Head-Gasket-NEW/123617075238?hash=item1cc826e026:g:H7QAAOSwJiBcTwlF

Thanx Dave! But being in SA ebay items is not always an option. As they get “lost in the post” very easily with our postal service... courier might be an option but that also pushes the price of the item up drastically.

koalar · Nov 21, 2019

JustApanda said:
Hi all,

My check engine light came on with a beep and the car slowly died. I tried starting again but When i turn the key it sounds like the engine itself isn’t turn

does the engine turn over with a spanner on the Crank nut ?

if yes

is the Crank spinning on the starter motor ?

JustApanda · Nov 21, 2019

koalar said:
does the engine turn over with a spanner on the Crank nut ?

if yes

is the Crank spinning on the starter motor ?

I have no idea. But when i tried to start with the key it just sounded like the starter was spinning. Didn’t seem like anything else. I just towed it to the mechanic after that. Will ask these questions when I go and see for myself tomorrow.

DaveMcT · Nov 21, 2019

Engines that refuse to start (e.g. no fuel) will have a continuous noise from the starter motor. Engines with a broken timing belt have a high/low sound as it is easier to turn cylinders with bent valves than it is those with closed valves.

The parts listed give you an idea of costs here in UK so you can judge how they compare in SA. It's not exhaustive of course you wont know everything until it's taken apart.

Consider replacing the whole engine.

grantleyrich · Nov 21, 2019

DaveMcT said:
Consider replacing the whole engine.

Seconded.

My experience of having an engine rebuilt following a snapped timing belt is not good. We had this happen on a 1.4 TU engine from a Citroen many years ago; the engine was rebuilt by Citroen trained mechanics but it was not a success, it kept mixing its fluids. In the end we opted for a replacement (used) engine which was a much cheaper job than the original rebuild and worked. Of course, that was in the days before everything was controlled by ECUs so it was easy to do the swap.

Unless you are confident that the engine is designed with a sacrificial link - like rockers (does the 100p 1.4 have them?) - you will never find out the full extent of the damage without a thorough and comprehensive rebuild.

Good luck.

ChrisPRSA · Nov 21, 2019

Oh no! Take off the top timing cover, super simple process and just check if the belt is still in tact and the tensioner is on tension. If you need to replace the belt, denso belts offer a 100 000km warranty on it and the kit was like R700. If you did break a velt, aftermarket valves are going to put you back aroundR260 a valve. But you're going to have to pull the head. If so that would be the time to inspect pistons for damage too. But check the belt first, if its in tact, move over to electronics, ie ignition and fueling..

Ps when the motor is swinging did it sound like it was swinging under compression or did it sound like a motor swinging with the plugs out

ChrisPRSA · Nov 21, 2019

JustApanda said:
As I suspected its a snapped timing belt guess its rebuild time yay!!

missed this post, my bad...if you are going the engine swap way, may e we can both do the 1.4t swap together on both pandas

DaveMcT · Nov 21, 2019

Does anyone know if the 1.4 petrol as sacrificial rockers as the 1.3 diesel does?. If they are fitted, the repairs are low cost when you fit the new timing belt.

JustApanda · Nov 21, 2019

ChrisPRSA said:
Oh no! Take off the top timing cover, super simple process and just check if the belt is still in tact and the tensioner is on tension. If you need to replace the belt, denso belts offer a 100 000km warranty on it and the kit was like R700. If you did break a velt, aftermarket valves are going to put you back aroundR260 a valve. But you're going to have to pull the head. If so that would be the time to inspect pistons for damage too. But check the belt first, if its in tact, move over to electronics, ie ignition and fueling..

Ps when the motor is swinging did it sound like it was swinging under compression or did it sound like a motor swinging with the plugs out

Ya it sounded as dave described... its definitely stripped teeth and bent valves. The mech quoted me R13000 to repair the belt with ancillaries which would allow them To test compression and the top end. I asked them
To strip and inspect visually which they didn’t want to. They then took a second hand belt and did a compression test to find none. So its either full rebuild or replacement engine. Which I’m trying to find now. Chris do you know of any? If i can find in SA for a fraction of the cost of the rebuild it’ll be great...

JustApanda · Nov 21, 2019

DaveMcT said:
Does anyone know if the 1.4 petrol as sacrificial rockers as the 1.3 diesel does?. If they are fitted, the repairs are low cost when you fit the new timing belt.

Ya if i get an engine it’ll go through a full major service before being driven... only safe that way

DaveMcT · Nov 21, 2019

JustApanda said:
Ya if i get an engine it’ll go through a full major service before being driven... only safe that way

I don't know the answer, but if the 100HP has valve rockers intended to break on overload, the repair costs could be quite low - new rockers, new timing belt. Job done.

You can check for bent rockers by removing the cam/rocker covers and simply looking. BUT if you have bent valves, you'll have to remove the cylinder head and check for cracks in the casting and replace the bent valves, etc, etc. Also remove the sump to check for creased bearing shells on the affected big end bearings. They may well be ok but very sensible to check.

Test for bent valves -

I checked mine in a darkened room -

Remove all valve springs and label valves for each seat. The obviously bent ones are easy to see. The possibly bent valves are not.
drop the valve into the head, shine an LED torch into the associated port and turn the valve using a seat lapping tool. Look at the combustion chamber side. If you can see a moving crescent shape of light as you turn the valve it's probably slightly bent. Recheck with a fine smear of engineer's blue on the valve seat. Blue should be picked up 360 degrees around the valve itself.

JustApanda · Nov 21, 2019

DaveMcT said:
I don't know the answer, but if the 100HP has valve rockers intended to break on overload, the repair costs could be quite low - new rockers, new timing belt. Job done.

You can check for bent rockers by removing the cam/rocker covers and simply looking. BUT if you have bent valves, you'll have to remove the cylinder head and check for cracks in the casting and replace the bent valves, etc, etc. Also remove the sump to check for creased bearing shells on the affected big end bearings. They may well be ok but very sensible to check.

Test for bent valves -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCpgemDWRDE

I checked mine in a darkened room -

Remove all valve springs and label valves for each seat. The obviously bent ones are easy to see. The possibly bent valves are not.
drop the valve into the head, shine an LED torch into the associated port and turn the valve using a seat lapping tool. Look at the combustion chamber side. If you can see a moving crescent shape of light as you turn the valve it's probably slightly bent. Recheck with a fine smear of engineer's blue on the valve seat. Blue should be picked up 360 degrees around the valve itself.

Ooh thanx for this... I’ve never built an engine but I’ve always wanted to! Guess now would be the time to learn! Id love to diy but time would be an issue.

ChrisPRSA · Nov 21, 2019

There's one on gumtree right now for a ridiculous R28 000... No way no how. You could probably pickup an entire donor car on auction nation or smd for that price. I sourced a write off mito for R24 000. So that's my plan. I'd gladly sell you my entire engine but I need it for two more months until the Mito arrives. Is the panda your daily driver?

Alternatively you could try engine den, Japan imports and there's a few listings online for bravo/punto engine importers. Maybe they could hook you up with a panda engine.

Finallt, you could always use this opportunity to swap out for low comp low pistons and boost it?

DaveMcT · Nov 21, 2019

Checking the rockers for damage is easy 30 minutes including finding the tools.

If indicated, taking off the cylinder head will take a couple of hours if you are careful. Use eLearn for the head bolt sequence.

The sump is messy but not high tech. Check just the affected big ends for damage. You might need new bolts some are not re usable..

This gives some useful hints. However engineer's blue is a better way to check valve seats for bent valves or worn seats. Lapping should be gentle and go both directions. If it needs the amount of grinding this chap did, it really should have seats cut at a professional workshop.

JustApanda · Nov 22, 2019

ChrisPRSA said:
There's one on gumtree right now for a ridiculous R28 000... No way no how. You could probably pickup an entire donor car on auction nation or smd for that price. I sourced a write off mito for R24 000. So that's my plan. I'd gladly sell you my entire engine but I need it for two more months until the Mito arrives. Is the panda your daily driver?

Alternatively you could try engine den, Japan imports and there's a few listings online for bravo/punto engine importers. Maybe they could hook you up with a panda engine.

Finallt, you could always use this opportunity to swap out for low comp low pistons and boost it?

Ya i saw that one in the tree but wow, thats half the cost of the car i bought... It is my daily unfortunately... what other cars came out with the 169A3000 engine? I know the 500s did but any other cars? And if I can’t get one couldn’t i fit the 1.4 tjet engine which is turbo already? And just get the the ecu and loom? Or would it take too much to get it to work? If

Low comp and turbo would be fun but not now...

JustApanda · Nov 22, 2019

DaveMcT said:
Checking the rockers for damage is easy 30 minutes including finding the tools.

If indicated, taking off the cylinder head will take a couple of hours if you are careful. Use eLearn for the head bolt sequence.

The sump is messy but not high tech. Check just the affected big ends for damage. You might need new bolts some are not re usable..

This gives some useful hints. However engineer's blue is a better way to check valve seats for bent valves or worn seats. Lapping should be gentle and go both directions. If it needs the amount of grinding this chap did, it really should have seats cut at a professional workshop.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovYBFOVyS5g&t=206s

Thanx dave! If i had the space to the work id gladly have a crack at it but living in an apartment building with open parking... the body corp wouldn’t be too impressed with an engine build happening there[emoji23]

If I can source a new head with everything done already it may work out cheaper wouldn’t it? Apart from the bottom end work and the ancillaries swopping the head would make it a quicker job, or is my thinking flawed?

Didge3 · Nov 22, 2019

JustApanda said:
know the 500s did but any other cars? And if I can’t get one couldn’t i fit the 1.4 tjet engine which is turbo already? And just get the the ecu and loom? Or would it take too much to get it to work? If

Low comp and turbo would be fun but not now...

The mk2 Punto & Idea came with the 1.4 16v but in 95hp guise, not sure on the differences but if the engine loom is the same in theory it would go in. I expect Fiat found the extra 5hp from a less restrictive intake and exhaust so you could re-use these from your engine, it may well be a more aggressive cam that gives more power.

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