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Old 24-09-2019   #16
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Re: 100HP Turbo

Quote Originally Posted by DaveMcT View Post
We run both of our Pandas on Tesco 99 octane. Its about 5p per litre more than plain vanilla 95 RON, but miles per are about the same and possibly slightly better. On 99 the cars feel like they want to drive whereas 95 makes them feel like the hand brake is binding.

All cars are power specded on 97 RON so if your "60bhp" Panda will only have that if you run higher octane or even posh petrol.
Really? The real difference between 95 and 99 is the temperature it'll self combust. And that will only happen with a high compressionrate. Then the knocksensor will change the timing and you'll loose (some) power.

gr J
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Old 24-09-2019   #17
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Re: 100HP Turbo

Quote Originally Posted by DaveMcT View Post
We run both of our Pandas on Tesco 99 octane. Its about 5p per litre more than plain vanilla 95 RON, but miles per are about the same and possibly slightly better. On 99 the cars feel like they want to drive whereas 95 makes them feel like the hand brake is binding.

All cars are power specded on 97 RON so if your "60bhp" Panda will only have that if you run higher octane or even posh petrol.
I think you find most cars are designed to run on 95 as that what the stand grade in in Europe and in many markets Asia Africa the fuels are probably often lower grade then that
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Old 24-09-2019   #18
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Re: 100HP Turbo

I can't find the source but while they will all run on 95 (and often much lower), the power spec is done with 97.

So a car that claims to be 100HP (98bhp) applies only on 97 RON fuel. It will be a good bit less on 95 RON and less still on 91 that's often sold in France. The energy content is the same but engines with knock sensors can make better use of higher octanes.


Turbos confuse the issue. They use the hot exhaust gas and lower octane fuels put more heat down the exhaust, but the higher compression needs a higher octane to avoid detonation.
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Old 24-09-2019   #19
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Re: 100HP Turbo

Quote Originally Posted by DaveMcT View Post
I can't find the source but while they will all run on 95 (and often much lower), the power spec is done with 97.

So a car that claims to be 100HP (98bhp) applies only on 97 RON fuel. It will be a good bit less on 95 RON and less still on 91 that's often sold in France. The energy content is the same but engines with knock sensors can make better use of higher octanes.


Turbos confuse the issue. They use the hot exhaust gas and lower octane fuels put more heat down the exhaust, but the higher compression needs a higher octane to avoid detonation.
I've never heard that said ever before as far as I'm aware 95% of cars are specd to run on 95 as many don't have the compression needed to make more power from more then that
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Old 24-09-2019   #20
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Re: 100HP Turbo

..and I guess that's why Panda Turbo is only interested in Super Unleaded, as it's Frankenstein ECU doesn't have the knock sensor connected or maybe it can't advance or retard the ignition.
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Old 24-09-2019   #21
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Re: 100HP Turbo

Project Oil Temperature sender progresses..


Converter is installed, just need a sensor now - maybe the postman will bring it tomorrow!
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Old 25-09-2019   #22
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Re: 100HP Turbo

Quote Originally Posted by PandaHP View Post
..and I guess that's why Panda Turbo is only interested in Super Unleaded, as it's Frankenstein ECU doesn't have the knock sensor connected or maybe it can't advance or retard the ignition.
Quite possibly.

But knock sensors are so useful on tuned engines, I'd be surprised if there is no possibility of fitting one. Maybe it has to be set up with software. Is there a discussion group for the ECU you are running?
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Old 05-10-2019   #23
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Re: 100HP Turbo

The ECU can defo accept a knock sensor, and it's on my list of "things to do". I want to have a close look at the ECU mapping and if possible have a couple of maps that I could select.
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Old 05-10-2019   #24
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Re: 100HP Turbo

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Old 05-10-2019   #25
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Re: 100HP Turbo

..and a quick update.. the Oil Cooler, remote head, and oil thermostat have all been through the parts cleaner. I've tested the thermostat and it opens and closes when hot and cold.

I was going to put the thermostat plate directly on the block, but it's just a few mm to large, so I'm going to need a remote plate and some pipes. The remote head and oil cooler have been reinstalled (behind the nearside inside wheel arch).

Seems I already have three Stack gauges, it seemed rather an poor idea to install the VDO oil temperature gauge that I had kicking around, So I'm about to obtain and fit a Stack one.


Then it's a question of where to put all these gauges..

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Old 06-10-2019   #26
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Re: 100HP Turbo

Here are a couple of photos of the trip around Ireland.
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Old 07-10-2019   #27
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Re: 100HP Turbo

sider
Quote Originally Posted by PandaHP View Post
Then it's a question of where to put all these gauges..
PandaHP
That's the issue with Pandas - nowhere to fit anything at the dash that wont look rubbish. Even moby fone holders are a problem.

I'm not sure if the space is tall enough for 52mm gauges, but you could consider a single DIN radio and use the space beneath for gauges.
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Old 07-10-2019   #28
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Re: 100HP Turbo

The original three gauges (Oil Pressure, Boost and Fuel Pressure) where in the top half of the radio aperture, with a rather naff single din radio beneath them.

I'd completely agree about phone holders, so that's why I replaced the gauges and the single din radio with a double din CarPlay Kenwood unit. That means that the phone can be thrown on the floor..

Using the CAD system I'd seen on Project Binky, I thought I could mount the gauges in a cluster in the gap between the existing instrument pod and the radio/ar con pod. (see photos below). But now I'd have four gauges (Oil Temp), so I need to re-design..

There are "pods" for sale on eBay for singles or a line of three..

Or I maybe I need to startup the 3d printer...

Or, seems the Kenwood has a reversing Camera input, I could just put all of the gauges in a box, fit a light and an camera and then display it on the screen...

Just need to think about it for a bit. Do you really need a Fuel Pressure gauge?

PandaHP
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Last edited by PandaHP; 07-10-2019 at 21:18. Reason: clarity
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Old 08-10-2019   #29
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Re: 100HP Turbo

Quote Originally Posted by PandaHP View Post
Just need to think about it for a bit. Do you really need a Fuel Pressure gauge?
I think I would rather an AFR gauge if you're going to have 3.
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Old 08-10-2019   #30
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Re: 100HP Turbo

Quote Originally Posted by A3jeroen View Post
Really? The real difference between 95 and 99 is the temperature it'll self combust. And that will only happen with a high compressionrate. Then the knocksensor will change the timing and you'll loose (some) power.

gr J
95 and 99 RON or even 87 all have the same energy content. BUT low grade petrol can more easily burn explosively so cannot be used by any reasonably efficient engine without retarding the ignition timing. The knock sensor picks up the noise of pre-ignition and the ECU retards the timing until it runs smoothly. With the spark delayed the peak pressure comes too late and heat is thrown away down the exhaust. Less power, higher consumption, etc.

Some engines are more aggressive on the timing back-off which I believe is why my bike ran so badly on 95RON but was happy on 97 or 99.

When unleaded first arrived it was available only as 95 RON. The lead containing 4 Star it replaced was 97 RON though you could also get 5 Star which was 100 RON. I had a Citroen BX 1.9 GT "retuned" (ignition timing retarded) to accept unleaded and it ran like a dog. There was no knock sensor and minimal electronics in the car so there was no other option. I put it back to standard and accepted it could not reasonably use unleaded without significant work on the engine.
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Last edited by DaveMcT; 08-10-2019 at 12:54.
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