Oil filters confusion

Currently reading:
Oil filters confusion

Joined
Jan 7, 2012
Messages
6,069
Points
1,985
Location
East
Can anyone clarify thsi?
I have two oil filters for my Pandas. One from Fiat Dealer and one from a reputable parts supplier. They are both supposed to be for Pandas.

Numbers on the box

0055256470-001 France
68240 0789 AA - 001

This has 6 holes in the body plate

0071736161 -001 China
6813 6113 AA-001 This has 8 holes in the body plate

Internally they are not idenitical to look at either

The recent purchase purports to be FPT filter and has no branding painted on the filter canister.

FPT was disbanded 7 years ago. Are their parts still floating about. All the aftermarket suppliers seem to be selling them but they are different to the Chinese part supplied by Fiat themselves.

Are tehy both OK to use or are the FPT of a different specification? Does anyone know?
 
I've just changed the oil and filter on my 100hp Panda. I purchased a genuine fiat filter from Shop4parts and six MANN filters from Amazon as they were Cheap. I noticed that the genuine filter was shorter than the MANN and that the oil holes were different. I'm going to stick with the MANN ones.The genuine ones had France printed on them.

I don't think you'll have a problem with either of the ones you've listed.
 
Stating the obvious that Fiat do not manufacture oil filters, you have quite a choice to choose from. If you do a bit of detective work, you will learn quite a lot about makes of filters. There are some who have purchased a few different makes and opened them up to obviously see the internal system. Bottom line I have deduced, buy cheap and the filter can split and come apart. It’s recommended to stick to well known and trusted brands, the choice is yours.

It wouldn’t really make good practice spending a wedge on your chosen oil and then fit an el cheapo filter. I will not recommend a filter, do a bit of digging yourself...(y)
 
I'm talking 1.2 petrol here, as engine is not specified above.

The early filters were larger than later ones, change pointis up to engine 1890665, and 1890666 on. These both have the same thread size, but the seal diameter changed, so fitting the wrong one will not work. Coould be messy, or destructive before this is realised. Euro used to quote seal diameter size, but seem to have lost that now. The seal face on the housing must match.

Personally I would never fit a cheap filter, or a brand I do not know and trust. The premium brands do not make all their own filters, but have interchange agreements between them, so quality is always good.
Just looking at Euro, they offer Mann, Bosch and Crosland. I would be happy to fit Mann or Bosch, but Crosland is not what it was, now owned by Euro, so I've no idea where made or to what standard. They may well be great, but I am not willing to test this.

If you have one in a Fiat box, and are happy that it is genuine, use it. The chinese one, might make a nice desk ornament. As said above, Fiat do not make their own, but will of course source from a good supplier, ensuring it is to their specifications. A Chinese manufacturer will copy it. Maybe using good materials, and to the correct specification, maybe just adequate, or maybe absolute rubbish. They are capable of the best, the worst, and everything between. Do you feel lucky?
 
Many many years ago a good friend set up his own auto spares business (Edinburgh Motor Factors) and he introduced me to the Mahle brand. Since then I've only ever used this brand or a genuine manufacturer's product - probably 90% Mahle. I've never had a problem directly related to oil filters since.
 
Many many years ago a good friend set up his own auto spares business (Edinburgh Motor Factors) and he introduced me to the Mahle brand. Since then I've only ever used this brand or a genuine manufacturer's product - probably 90% Mahle. I've never had a problem directly related to oil filters since.

Mahle are a veey good make of filter. I used them when we had a Chrysler Grand Voyage diesel. The problem I found, was Tring to get hold of the Mahle brand and there cost compared to MANN and WIX filters.

At work, we have over 300 very large diesel powered vehicles, the only make that's used on them is MANN. There are a few reasons for this. One is cost and the second is the quality but in no particular order.

My Panda has just had Miller's motorsports triple ester 10-40 oil put in her. I know that I could just use a semi-synth oil at half the price! But for me, I'd rather use Miller's oil and a top quality oil filter is a must.
 
Bypass (aka secondary) oil filter systems are really quite simple but manufacturers see you coming on costs. I would have thought a couple of braided hoses, remote filter bracket and restriction orifice would be reasonable cost.

Amsoil do one but its expensive. Here's another https://www.donaldson.com/en-us/engine/filters/products/lube/assemblies/by-pass-filtration-118mm/ but no details of UK pricing.

The main full flow oil filter will stop down to 20 microns. The bypass filter is a remote element with a pressure line from a suitable oil gallery and drain back to the sump. It takes 5% to 10% of the main oil flow. This filter will stop 2 to 3 micron debris and perhaps 40% of 1 micron debris. Over a short time all of the oil in the car will have all been taken through that filter and polished to sub-micron standards.
The main filter then becomes something to stop the brick ends and not much else. The sump oil lasts longer and if you like can be tested rather than replaced. Just swap the filters and top it up.

The downside is that ultra fine filters will clog pretty quickly. The first might be done in 500 miles. But as the engine cleans out, the filter wont need to stop so much crap. Getting clogged won't hurt the engine as its taking a bypass flow (or not), but its oil cleaning will stop if oil isn't flowing through.

These were a new idea in the 1980s. Our coal moving TS40 scrapers with twin 500bhp Cummins or Detroits operated 24/7 got through a 45 gallon oil drum every WEEK! We had an oil lab on site so installed bypass filters which were changed every week and the oil topped up. THREE MONTHS later, the engine oil was still good as new. We simply stopped doing regular engine oil changes.
 
Last edited:
Great for industrial use, as above, but an unnecessary overkill for a standard car engine. Hand up anyone who ever knew of a FIRE engine failing because of micro oil contaminants? If oil and filter are changed as per manufacturer recommendations there should be no need for anything else.

When Fram filters had a manufacturing plant in Wales, opposite the Royal Mint, it was fascinating to spend time there seeing filters being made, their R&D and testing processes. Surprising how much pressure that thin tin can will take before it splits open. It will balloon significantly beforehand.
Was also good to see otherbrands being tested for comparison. All good brands perform similarly, others can vary quite significantly. I've seen paper elements collapsed, restricting flow, by-pass valves fitted the wrong way, so no filtering at all, paper elements too short, so oil flows past and more.

Replacing a filter more often than recommended can do more harm than good. As a filter collects contaminants, it effectively becomes a finer filter. The filter paper is chosen with this in mind, so the initial micron measurement is not necessarily what you get through most of its life on the engine. It has to be specified with a compromise to still allow flow even if left longer than recommended, but fine enough to stop the most harmful stuff passing through when new. The engine and filter manufacturers know what they are doing, modify at your own risk.
 
Last edited:
Great for industrial use, as above, but an unnecessary overkill for a standard car engine.

Replacing a filter more often than recommended can do more harm than good. As a filter collects contaminants, it effectively becomes a finer filter. The filter paper is chosen with this in mind, so the initial micron measurement is not necessarily what you get through most of its life on the engine. It has to be specified with a compromise to still allow flow even if left longer than recommended, but fine enough to stop the most harmful stuff passing through when new. The engine and filter manufacturers know what they are doing, modify at your own risk.

I've been running our Panda and my boy's Punto on this: https://www.opieoils.co.uk/p-60166-fuchs-titan-gt1-xtl-5w-40-synthetic-engine-oil.aspx for a few years now and they are doing very nicely on it. They get either a genuine Fiat or Mahle oil filter. As you say above Bill, there is a place for these super efficient filtration systems but, as long as you use a good quality oil and change both it and the filter as recommended - or sooner - I think you'll find you've got other more important things, like body corrosion, to worry about long before engine wear problems will be occupying your time!

I'm fascinated by your comments on replacing a filter too often. I hadn't thought about that aspect to a filter's operation during it's lifetime. We only have one vehicle, of the six in the family, which does over 10,000 miles a year. The others all do in the 5 to 8,000 mile bracket with our little Panda doing only about 2 to 3,000 yearly. As I change the filters every year along with the oil it's giving me food for thought eh?
 
A new oil filter has wider pores. They don't matter with clean oil but they do gradually fill up so filter efficiency does improve with miles in direct proportion to reduced flow rate, hence the bypass valve.

My Yamaha bike four cylinder 900cc 90bhp, air cooled 8 valves with engine, gearbox and wet clutch all running in the same oil. It had the oil changed every 4000 miles. I checked the bucket and shim valve clearances at 75,000 miles and found zero wear on bearing surfaces.

It had a tiny cartridge oil filter on the front and oil changes were easy so they got done. It was obvious from the visual state of the oil that it was far from expired. The upside was proven by the engine internals being good as new.

Cars however, are far more hassle, grovelling underneath, blah, blah.

I believe a bypass filter would save time and money as the main filter and the oil could be left in place for far longer. 20,000 miles on today's ultra long life oils is common. But they cannot remove the ultra fine particles. No worries it will get through the warranty no problem. Bypass filters could take that out to 50,000 miles with little or no oil degradation.

There is no reason why an ultra fine bypass filter should cost more than a standard filter. Locate the thing conveniently and filter changes get done on time, every time. The oil health looks after itself. You could even argue the full flow filter isn't needed.
 
My point is that a 1 micron bypass filter negates the need for a 20 micron full flow filter. It saves the cost and mess of oil changes and engines last even longer. Ooops we can't have that can we?

Adding it to an existing old engine is pointless of course. The damage is already done.
 
Quote
The chinese one, might make a nice desk ornament.

Thats the one from the main dealer..... Complete in Fiat box with the Alfa Fiat Lancia logos. FPT is I find made by / for Fiat Power Train. The same logo is actually stamped into some of the engine components too. FPT set up when Fiat and GM went their separate ways apparently to fill a hole in suppliers presumably. According to Wiki FPT was defunct in 2013. As usual with Fiat what they say and what they do are some way apart.

The Fiat supplied filter has gone on the newer car and I have two FPT filters also in Fiat boxes for the older one. One thing is clear, the car is an awful lot better for having the work done. It makes me wonder what oil was used last time.

Right or wrong I never use oil filters that are not genuine ones. I will compromise elsewhere.

I had an email from Mopar last weekend. Big discounts on parts.... Suffice to say the cabin filter with 25% off was still £28 +vat. Shop4parts Magnetti Marelli filter was about £5.60. Mopar had knocked the parking sensors down though. Only £195 with discount. It makes me wonder why they waste their time and mine sending the email in the first place as these can be had new on the net for £60 in the Fiat box!

I am rather pleased that the dealers service booking team annoyed me so much and spurred me into going back to doing the work myself. By the time the new car needs a service I will have saved a fortune on the service contracts!
 
Last edited:
:yum:
A new oil filter has wider pores. They don't matter with clean oil but they do gradually fill up so filter efficiency does improve with miles in direct proportion to reduced flow rate, hence the bypass valve.

My Yamaha bike four cylinder 900cc 90bhp, air cooled 8 valves with engine, gearbox and wet clutch all running in the same oil. It had the oil changed every 4000 miles. I checked the bucket and shim valve clearances at 75,000 miles and found zero wear on bearing surfaces.

It had a tiny cartridge oil filter on the front and oil changes were easy so they got done. It was obvious from the visual state of the oil that it was far from expired. The upside was proven by the engine internals being good as new.

Cars however, are far more hassle, grovelling underneath, blah, blah.

I believe a bypass filter would save time and money as the main filter and the oil could be left in place for far longer. 20,000 miles on today's ultra long life oils is common. But they cannot remove the ultra fine particles. No worries it will get through the warranty no problem. Bypass filters could take that out to 50,000 miles with little or no oil degradation.

There is no reason why an ultra fine bypass filter should cost more than a standard filter. Locate the thing conveniently and filter changes get done on time, every time. The oil health looks after itself. You could even argue the full flow filter isn't needed.

I used to think about this when doing 100K a year but now retired and doing much much less its not going to be worth it. I cant believe the oil even in the twin air will be expired in my annual mileage or even 3 times it so while I concur with the fact its not for me. I rather suspect the bike was either Japanese or German. The quality of their parts also helps with long term wear resistance I suspect.
 
Back
Top