Hi! I'm an italian bloke that just turned 18 and looking for the first car. Why fiat? Always had them in my family and they are good.


I'm undecided between a Grande Punto (3 door obv) and a Bravo (198). The problem is that the first year after you get the license the car must be less than 70kw and 55kw/CarWeight.


Therefore I can only drive the 1.4 77hp GP and the 1.4 90hp Bravo.

I'd like to do some spirited driving (or at least try to), learning how to on cars and just have fun with it. Which one would be more "sincere"? If I like it and the power is good enough maybe I could keep it for more than 2 yrs; otherwise I'd just buy a Stilo Abarth.


What should I buy in your opinion? Any suggestion? Maybe even some basic mods, already planning to do some .

Thankss a lot



PS: no VW and related models obv

If you want a Fiat with as much bang for buck as possible, get a Cinquecento/Seicento or even a Panda. Surely they're all still plentiful in Italy?
You can drive all of them flat out 90% of the time and it'll feel fast because they're so small.
I think you'd be disappointed with the Bravo as it's far to big for that little powerplant, and the 1.4 8v in the Grande Punto is just awful.

Oh, welcome to the forum, hope you're keeping safe

Eklipze3k said:

and the 1.4 8v in the Grande Punto is just awful.

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seconded, from someone who used to have a 1.4 8v Punto grande, they are not fun and not spirited. They are at best adequate to get you from A to B before you die but they are likely to cause a premature death from boredom.

If they are your only two options I would go for the punto as its probably the better as a first car and there are loads of them about making them very cheap and easy to find spares for. Also a much bigger number of people who can provide help and advice.

But I am inclined to suggest you look at something smaller like the panda or as there are probably many of them about in italy an older Mk2b punto or punto classic. which are smaller lighter and quicker. The grande was better looking but the Mk2 to was always a better car in my opinion.

Hi and welcome

I guess you are looking for 'cool'..
So want a bigger car

Is the 1248cc multijet diesel too powerful?
@75 bhp in the Uk


Seicento ( 600 ) drives better than panda..

No Ypsillon option for you??

Charlie

Thanks a lot for the help, I really appreciate it!

I've looked at the Seicento, I really like the pre-restyling sporting but all the ones that I've seen weren't even in a decent state. Same thing for the cinquecento.

The 1.2 Multijet 75 and the 85 one on the Punto are just below the limit, this two are good but unfortunately I won't be able to drive them in two years as they are going to be blocked, at least during the winter, could be good idea though. I'm in Milan, and while it's great for many things, emission policies are strict (only on diesels, petrol cars are good if they can use lpg).

We have an Ypsilon (third series) with the 1.2 fire 69bhp, while it looks very good (the glass roof is great :slayer the engine is really slow and my father use it for his work commute, already thought of "stealing" it from him.

I considered the bravo because of the looks and also because it's just at the power limit. A bit too big though imho.

From your responses I think that probably the 73bhp punto mk1/mk2 are probably the best bet for having fun without a ton of power.

Well, thanks again, and be safe, here with the quarantine is not good. Already spent one whole month at home....

Any suggestion about any other car? Even if it's not a fiat.


Really undecided about the car. Before I started this thread I was just having some doubts about which one would suit me better; now I don't really know if the Bravo (excluded the GP at this point) could be any good? Even if it's a bit underpowered, does it handle well at least?

Hard for us in the uk to comment as we don’t really know what’s available in your area, here in the uk cars are very cheap and plentiful, I know across Europe cars can be more expensive and areas tend to favour one brand such as fiat in Italy or Peugeot and Renault in France etc

Hi Phil I hope you and your family in Milan are safe and well.

I think your idea of a Mk2 Punto would be hard to beat.

Cars that are cheap both to buy and to run with low emissions often aren't much fun to drive. I think FIAT do this combination better than most (and I've only had a FIAT for the last 18 months)

+1 for the 169 Panda!

I also drive an MX5 and a 50's sportscar and the Panda always puts a smile on my face. You can just drive it at the limit everywhere and the balance of economy, performace and handling are just right for an every-day car.

The only non-FIAT small cheap car I've enjoyed driving in recent years was the Toyota Aygo / Citroen C1. It's light, fun to drive and so cheap to run.

A Suzuki swift is also a lot of fun, but more expensive to buy and insure.

I would advise getting a car as cheap to insure as possible for the first few years. These things make a huge difference for a new driver.

I appreciate these cars don't have the style that is all-important when you're 18.

I think the Grande Punto looks great, but it is that bit heavier for the small engines and might cost more to insure (depending what the situation is for insurance in Italy).

So, if you don't mind the image then a Panda would be ideal, but the Mk2 Punto which is cheap to buy and run for a new driver, is light and fun to drive, and will always look good gets my vote

The mk2 punto:
60 or 80 petrol cars

80 too powerful.. is the 60 no good :too light?

I LIKE the pandas.. but for a car thats good handling.. cheap to run.. then yes punto model 188 is hard to beat

But emissions laws may make it impractical

Tell us more

varesecrazy said:

The mk2 punto:
60 or 80 petrol cars

80 too powerful.. is the 60 no good :too light?

I LIKE the pandas.. but for a car thats good handling.. cheap to run.. then yes punto model 188 is hard to beat

But emissions laws may make it impractical

Tell us more

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I would second this. The two door Punto mark 2 (188) is still a very good looking car. Fiat ruined the Mk2A which looks like a mildly re-worked VW Polo.

Panda169 (2003 to 2011) is actually a very good car. Fit 500 rear springs with spacer rubbers at both ends along with Febi bump stops from the Fiat Coupe. . That lowers the back slightly but more importantly really improves the ride and handling. If you have the ability fit a 500 rear axle. and springs. You then get the anti roll bar and even better handling.

The 1.2/60 engine is not especially fast but it is very satisfying to drive quickly. The diesel with remap is very quick.

Alternatively just go for the 4x4 version and bling it up with knobby tyres.

DaveMcT said:

The 1.2/60 engine is not especially fast but it is very satisfying to drive quickly. The diesel with remap is very quick.

Alternatively just go for the 4x4 version and bling it up with knobby tyres.

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Best of both worlds go for the 4x4 diesel cross, I do keep getting tempted by a tiny diesel 4x4 would be great round where I live in the middle of the Norfolk/Suffolk countryside

Looking at the current emission laws, I can drive any bi-fuel (LPG or CNG) petrol car, while I can only drive Euro 5 diesel cars (produced between 2009 and 2015) until October 2022.

Based on this, the complete list of cars that I could drive and considered in the first year is:
- Grande Punto 77
- Bravo 1.4 90
- Stilo 1.2
- Panda 169 (excluded the 100hp version)
- Punto mk1 and mk2 1.2 60
- Lancia Ypsilon (846) 1.2 69

I have excluded the GP and the Stilo, the latter because I’d love to buy the Abarth one as soon as money allows to. Bravo excluded due to the weight, size and insurance. Still open to test drive it but, insurance is expensive for this imho. I don’t know how insurance work in the UK but we have “risk classes” and I start at the highest one, therefore I’d pay around 2000 euros to insure it (this without any bonus options), almost 2/3 of the car price, so not good.

Now, the Ypsilon that my father drives is great, I really like the looks and the interiors, but the engine is really slow and it feels a bit too “wobbly” to me, at kinda low speeds, maybe because of it’s height and soft springs? That’s the reason why I excluded the panda in the first place as I was kinda worried that it would feel the same, but, seems that I was wrong. Panda back into the mix then.

This leaves the Panda and Punto. Costs for both are similar, maybe a tiny bit lower on the Panda, not sure, I’ll try to call some insurance companies (hoping they are working in this period), and see if I can get some quotes.

The 1.2/60 engine is not especially fast but it is very satisfying to drive quickly.

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+1 for the Punto then.

Performance wise I just want something that can be fun for some spirited driving on some twisty back roads, nothing special or fast. I just need to feel that I’m going fast, power isn’t always important.

I appreciate these cars don't have the style that is all-important when you're 18.

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Oh, I too don’t understand all that style that you need as an average or “normal” 18 yo. I mean, if something works and suits you, isn’t that good?

Most cars on your list will be ..in the UK

COST £<900 Punto 188 £300/500,Panda 169 £400/800 ypsillon: Rare but expensive

INSURANCE £2,000 TO £3,000

Insurance in UK is hugely expensive for young drivers

The Panda 169 is pretty much the Punto Mk2 scaled down not very much. They are reliable and parts are low cost. If it improves your insurance costs, they can be converted to LPG. there is lots of space under the spare wheel or even better cut out the spare wheel well and fit a flat panel and bigger tank.

Liquid phase injector systems are easy to install but you do need to drill into the inlet manifold so that has to be removed/replaced.

In UK we get no tax or insurance recognition for LPG conversions so the costs/benefits do not add up for small cars. That said a 100HP used at higher mileages would quickly repay the costs.

DaveMcT said:

The Panda 169 is pretty much the Punto Mk2 scaled down not very much. They are reliable and parts are low cost. If it improves your insurance costs, they can be converted to LPG. there is lots of space under the spare wheel or even better cut out the spare wheel well and fit a flat panel and bigger tank.

Liquid phase injector systems are easy to install but you do need to drill into the inlet manifold so that has to be removed/replaced.

In UK we get no tax or insurance recognition for LPG conversions so the costs/benefits do not add up for small cars. That said a 100HP used at higher mileages would quickly repay the costs.

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I think you an claim something like £20 off road tax if it's registered as dual fuel
Bits that about it so very little

I called some insurance companies and costs ranges between 1750 and 2200£ and said that it could be a Panda 1.2 60hp or a BMW E92 318i, costs depends on my risk class, not much on the car and fuel.

The only thing that changes is the registration that is year long and depends exclusively on power, displacement (2.0 > pays an extra tax) and emission class. Basically an Coupe 20v Turbo costs more than a new Panda.


And any mod to the car is illegal. For example, to install a cold air intake (an homologated one for street use and for that car) is illegal unless installed by an authorized mechanic, after getting a "nulla osta" (certificate of no impediment) from FIAT (and they don't give any, obv), and finally, it has to be tested (basically they do an MOT test) and authorized by the local DMV of the specific residence zone.
The only exceptions are:
Wheel size and LPG conversions don't need the cert of no impediment.
Exhaust is permitted (kinda, rear and cat replacement only) if homologated and same applies to spoilers, bumpers and similar.

Basically almost everything will make the car illegal... Maybe on the Panda I'll put the 100hp suspensions, just thinking what I could do .

The cost of a Panda and a Punto mk2 is between 750£ and 1500£ in decent conditions.

I think I'll go with a Panda, just waiting for the quarantine to end.

Very good choice Phil I'm sure you'll be happy with a Panda. I wouldn't change mine for anything else.

When you get round to looking at cars, it's worth having a look under the back of the car to check the condition of the rear axle. It's about the only part that rusts on these cars (although I don't know if rust is too much of an issue in the Milan area...)

As DaveMcT posted above, about the best modification you can do to a 1.2 Panda is fit a later (2012+) FIAT 500 rear axle which has an integral anti-roll bar, with 500 springs for improved ride and handling. And it still keeps the car (sort of) standard