waterless coolant
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waterless coolant
Waterless coolants have one main advantage for normal motorists in that they a fill once for life. No two year / five year (long life) change requirements.
Before converting from normal to waterless requires a very thorough flushing regime to be fully effective. Up front cost/time is high.
Personally I would say that your manufacturer's recommended coolant options are going to be you best option unless you are venturing into extreme conditions/operational modes.
Don't get me wrong as I've got nothing against waterless. You have to review and study all aspects related to your vehicle's operational modes, age, etc.
Another thing to take into account is cooling system failure. Bust hose, stone in radiator etc. Cost recovery from these is more expensive.
Lastly with a traditional water based system were you to have a coolant loss on holiday away from home a top-up with water is not an option. Were a massive loss of water due to say a hose burst/detachment then you will not have enough waterless coolant to get you home. Most/All UK/EU breakdown services will be ready and able to solve standard cooling system issues at roadside. They may walk away from waterless or ask you to indemnify them for any recovery actions they take.
Before converting from normal to waterless requires a very thorough flushing regime to be fully effective. Up front cost/time is high.
Personally I would say that your manufacturer's recommended coolant options are going to be you best option unless you are venturing into extreme conditions/operational modes.
Don't get me wrong as I've got nothing against waterless. You have to review and study all aspects related to your vehicle's operational modes, age, etc.
Another thing to take into account is cooling system failure. Bust hose, stone in radiator etc. Cost recovery from these is more expensive.
Lastly with a traditional water based system were you to have a coolant loss on holiday away from home a top-up with water is not an option. Were a massive loss of water due to say a hose burst/detachment then you will not have enough waterless coolant to get you home. Most/All UK/EU breakdown services will be ready and able to solve standard cooling system issues at roadside. They may walk away from waterless or ask you to indemnify them for any recovery actions they take.
One very big advantage of waterless is that it does not boils at normal operating tempas so system runs unpressurised so little chance of a bust hose and lower stress on radiator and seals.
However unless you are planning to keep the car for many years aor run in extreme conditions waterless does not make economic sense.
Robert G8RPI.
However unless you are planning to keep the car for many years aor run in extreme conditions waterless does not make economic sense.
Robert G8RPI.
Not really a good choice for the average driver. The biggest problem is the lack of movable heat, a car engine runs better at a given temperature. Waterless coolant is not good at this. Water is the best at cooling all over. There are other cons, seemingly it can lead to reduced power, pron to be flammable in certain conditions, there is quite an alarming list, look up the cons. I remember reading about this stuff on another forum.
The engine temperature is set by the thermostat, waterless coolant does not change that. Waterless has lower specfic heat capacity but that makes little difference in typical car system other than speeding warm up times. Waterless is less likely to suffer localised boiling which can cause hot spots in some engines with water.
Robert G8RPI.
Robert G8RPI.
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I would give your system a good flush out and maybe fit a new rad as you could have a blockage somewhere. the gt’s do get warm but as long as the fan is kicking in it should be ok , you could change the coolant every year and won’t brake the bank [emoji1303]
You have to ask yourself, when was the last time you boiled your car in normal circumstances without a mechanical fault.
Taken from another forum/ post.....
Water in a road car is used because it is the highest heat transfer & thermal capacity at normal temperature. Antifreeze added to deal with cold conditions, corrosion inhibitors to avoid electrolytic corrosion.
It's pressurised to 2 bar at which point its boiling point is around 130c if your engine is that hot you have far worse problems.
Taken from another forum/ post.....
Water in a road car is used because it is the highest heat transfer & thermal capacity at normal temperature. Antifreeze added to deal with cold conditions, corrosion inhibitors to avoid electrolytic corrosion.
It's pressurised to 2 bar at which point its boiling point is around 130c if your engine is that hot you have far worse problems.
It's around 1.1 - 1.2 Bar .. but otherwise jimboy is correct.
Pressure makes the biggest difference. 1.1 Bar makes regular water boil only at 126C. With 1.1 Bar and 50% coolant, the boiling temperature becomes 133C.
Coolant:water mixes absorb less heat than pure water, so a 50:50 ratio is usually the maximum recommended concentration of coolant. Without a higher output water pump, the more coolant you add to the water, the more likely you are to get incomplete cooling... so localised hot spots, boiling and bubbles.
I have no idea about waterless coolant at all...
but in my experience the standard radiatore, waterpump and thermostat usually have a HUGE capacity (if working well)that dwarfs the amount of heat an engine can make. You will hardly ever (in moving traffic) have the 'stat fully open.
If you want more cooly anyway.. then check out the radiatore on the Punto 1.7/1.9D (depending what model GT you have). It'll likely be bigger (wider) and Fiat usually uses a radiator support bracket that has the holes for the stubs of all the different radiators that can possibly be fitted, so that they can use one mount for every model, rather than introducing a new part for each different sized radiator.
You may need to remove some blanking panels next to your "tiny" radiatore to fit the wider one in there... (if you look at your rad' you would be able to see whether there is a blanking panel in there to close what would otherwise be a gap).
Ralf S.
Pressure makes the biggest difference. 1.1 Bar makes regular water boil only at 126C. With 1.1 Bar and 50% coolant, the boiling temperature becomes 133C.
Coolant:water mixes absorb less heat than pure water, so a 50:50 ratio is usually the maximum recommended concentration of coolant. Without a higher output water pump, the more coolant you add to the water, the more likely you are to get incomplete cooling... so localised hot spots, boiling and bubbles.
I have no idea about waterless coolant at all...
but in my experience the standard radiatore, waterpump and thermostat usually have a HUGE capacity (if working well)that dwarfs the amount of heat an engine can make. You will hardly ever (in moving traffic) have the 'stat fully open.If you want more cooly anyway.. then check out the radiatore on the Punto 1.7/1.9D (depending what model GT you have). It'll likely be bigger (wider) and Fiat usually uses a radiator support bracket that has the holes for the stubs of all the different radiators that can possibly be fitted, so that they can use one mount for every model, rather than introducing a new part for each different sized radiator.
You may need to remove some blanking panels next to your "tiny" radiatore to fit the wider one in there... (if you look at your rad' you would be able to see whether there is a blanking panel in there to close what would otherwise be a gap).
Ralf S.
There are several things to realise about waterless coolant the main one being it’s basically the same essential glycol coolant you put into your engine already just much more expensive. This means like pure glycol coolant it can be highly flammable so leakages are not good.
The coolant does not vaporise like water but it does still expand in heat by about 7-8% so it does put build a little pressure but no where near as much as water based coolant.
If your engine does over heat because of a blocked thermostat or radiator,it won’t boil over, it won’t vaporise and therefore the metal parts of the engine are still cooled at temperatures above the boiling point of water. A couple of hundred degrees won’t damage metal but a thousand degrees or more on uncooked metal parts were water has evaporated away will quickly warp and distort, Expand and possible seize. The flip side of this is that plastic parts will be overheated by the coolant, causing it to melt so you can wreck the water pump, hoses, clips or radiator end caps which are all plastic, and plastic melted all over your engine is still going to wreck your engine.
You need to make sure ther is less than 2-3% of water in the system, anything above this and it will be no better than normal coolant. To achieve this you have to use special flushing fluids and processes to remove as much water as possible from the coolant system. Any water will still boil. Vaporise and pressurise the system.
There are some good advantages such as the freezing point is about -40’C and rather than expanding when it freezes it contracts and therefore does not cause engine damage like water freezing in a normal engine, that said Europe doesn’t normally see anywhere near -40. And it does not need changing, as the chemicals all mix nicely together, additives and corrosion inhibitors do not separate out like in water and so it doesn’t go bad like water coolants, but then the one of cost of converting to waterless system can be well in excess of a couple of fluid changes every 4 - 5 years.
All the benefits are immediately lost if a muppet tops up the coolant with water.
I looked into this in great detail in the past, it really isn’t worth doing unless you have a true classic or vintage car which already has a delicate cooling system. And you are planing to keep the car long term 10 years plus.
Do not go out and just fill your car with undiluted glycol coolant, the additives and chemicals in it are different to if you use a dedicated waterless coolant and so do not work in exactly the same way, which is why they charge so much for it versus normal coolant, despite it not really costing anymore at all to make.
The coolant does not vaporise like water but it does still expand in heat by about 7-8% so it does put build a little pressure but no where near as much as water based coolant.
If your engine does over heat because of a blocked thermostat or radiator,it won’t boil over, it won’t vaporise and therefore the metal parts of the engine are still cooled at temperatures above the boiling point of water. A couple of hundred degrees won’t damage metal but a thousand degrees or more on uncooked metal parts were water has evaporated away will quickly warp and distort, Expand and possible seize. The flip side of this is that plastic parts will be overheated by the coolant, causing it to melt so you can wreck the water pump, hoses, clips or radiator end caps which are all plastic, and plastic melted all over your engine is still going to wreck your engine.
You need to make sure ther is less than 2-3% of water in the system, anything above this and it will be no better than normal coolant. To achieve this you have to use special flushing fluids and processes to remove as much water as possible from the coolant system. Any water will still boil. Vaporise and pressurise the system.
There are some good advantages such as the freezing point is about -40’C and rather than expanding when it freezes it contracts and therefore does not cause engine damage like water freezing in a normal engine, that said Europe doesn’t normally see anywhere near -40. And it does not need changing, as the chemicals all mix nicely together, additives and corrosion inhibitors do not separate out like in water and so it doesn’t go bad like water coolants, but then the one of cost of converting to waterless system can be well in excess of a couple of fluid changes every 4 - 5 years.
All the benefits are immediately lost if a muppet tops up the coolant with water.
I looked into this in great detail in the past, it really isn’t worth doing unless you have a true classic or vintage car which already has a delicate cooling system. And you are planing to keep the car long term 10 years plus.
Do not go out and just fill your car with undiluted glycol coolant, the additives and chemicals in it are different to if you use a dedicated waterless coolant and so do not work in exactly the same way, which is why they charge so much for it versus normal coolant, despite it not really costing anymore at all to make.
Nah everything runs sweet I got an aluminium rad only few years old just wanted to know if it was better or just stick to what I got just had new thermostat fitted so system was flushed out and seems to run bit cooler since doing that also doesn't seem to get as hot as quick or stay as hot, seems I will just use normal antifreeze from what everyone has said. ? And yes that stuff is expensive as hell I Gota use it in the Peugeot so that's y I asked.
It's around 1.1 - 1.2 Bar .. but otherwise jimboy is correct.
Pressure makes the biggest difference. 1.1 Bar makes regular water boil only at 126C. With 1.1 Bar and 50% coolant, the boiling temperature becomes 133C.
Coolant:water mixes absorb less heat than pure water, so a 50:50 ratio is usually the maximum recommended concentration of coolant. Without a higher output water pump, the more coolant you add to the water, the more likely you are to get incomplete cooling... so localised hot spots, boiling and bubbles.
I have no idea about waterless coolant at all...
If you want more cooly anyway.. then check out the radiatore on the Punto 1.7/1.9D (depending what model GT you have). It'll likely be bigger (wider) and Fiat usually uses a radiator support bracket that has the holes for the stubs of all the different radiators that can possibly be fitted, so that they can use one mount for every model, rather than introducing a new part for each different sized radiator.
You may need to remove some blanking panels next to your "tiny" radiatore to fit the wider one in there... (if you look at your rad' you would be able to see whether there is a blanking panel in there to close what would otherwise be a gap).
Ralf S.
I got an ally rad ?
Nice information thanks, I would not fill my car with undiluted coolant ??? now that made me chuckle lol I mix it about 66/33 or 1/3 don't really need to go 50/50 in this country
Slightly off topic, I have a Peugeot that recommends waterless is that cos it's a newer engine 2005 or should I just use normal antifreeze ? my coolant is currently green in the Peugeot, don't know what colour waterless coolant would be so not sure what the person b4 me has used.
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An old engine with large coolant capacity or one with a penchant for overheating (think Triumph Stag) then waterless can be good. It shortens warm-up time, will better cope with marginal overheating and wont get localised boiling which can warp cylinder heads. It's also great for dealing with dissimilar metals (brass, iron, zinc, aluminium) all in one system.
But on a relatively modern engine like the Fiat FIRE (I did say "relatively") there's really not much point. They have a low coolant capacity in the engine so any loss of coolant (waterless or normal) will blow the head gasket before the driver realises there's a problem.
The biggest issues here are maintenance and corrosion on older cars. The FIRE has a steel pipe hidden under the exhaust manifold and radiators don't last for ever on any car.
But on a relatively modern engine like the Fiat FIRE (I did say "relatively"
) there's really not much point. They have a low coolant capacity in the engine so any loss of coolant (waterless or normal) will blow the head gasket before the driver realises there's a problem. The biggest issues here are maintenance and corrosion on older cars. The FIRE has a steel pipe hidden under the exhaust manifold and radiators don't last for ever on any car.
BOTTOM LINE HERE, the simple fact that waterless coolant is not needed in your average daily car. Common sense will tell you that, simple.
Water with antifreeze & corrosion inhibitors works fine, there is really nothing else to be said, not unless you are the type who likes all the technical detail & other information that really is not relevant to your average driver on the likes of a car forum who most haven't considered this type of coolant because they haven't heard of it.
Water with antifreeze & corrosion inhibitors works fine, there is really nothing else to be said, not unless you are the type who likes all the technical detail & other information that really is not relevant to your average driver on the likes of a car forum who most haven't considered this type of coolant because they haven't heard of it.
One thing to note is that waterless coolant is not the same chemical as antifreeze. Waterless coolant is propylene glycol (PG) while antifreeze is ethylene glycol (EG). "Glycol" covers a wide range of compounds. There is some good info on the cooling capabilities here:
http://www.veoliawatertech.com/crownsolutions/ressources/documents/2/21823,Glycol.pdf
Robert G8RPI.
http://www.veoliawatertech.com/crownsolutions/ressources/documents/2/21823,Glycol.pdf
Robert G8RPI.
It's OK Bob, the OP is not going to use the waterless coolant in his GT...
