Want to get a new toy, but not sure what...

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Want to get a new toy, but not sure what...

Steve145

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I'm wanting to get a car to work on as a project, not a daily driver but something that I can fiddle with at my leisure.

Ideally, it needs to be:

Small, as my garage is small (short).

Light, so I can trailer it easily, around 950kg max. Light also makes lifting it easier for work.

Easy(ish) to work on, an engine bay that isn't too cramped.

FUN - it has to make me smile when driving, otherwise there's no point...

Cheap, both in purchase cost and parts. I'm not giving a budget as prices are different in France, but I'm looking at the bottom end of the market.


Preferably fuel injection, though I'm not ruling out carbs entirely, I'm just more familiar and better equipped to deal with EFI.

I'd like the handling to at least compare with my Alfa 145, with a bit of work if needed.

I'm not a fan of electric power steering, don't like how it feels. No power steering is fine by me.

Engine wise, I'm not looking for lots of power, revvy and willing fills the "fun" category above. The plan will be to do a complete engine rebuild, this is supposed to be a learning experienc as much as a tuning exercise, something that has easily available parts would be a bonus.

Tuning wise, without getting in to discussion of legalities, modifying a vehicle in France is a very grey area, in that there is simply no provision for it in the legislation. So there won't be any turbos or the like, but I would like to do as much as possible to the engine internally, as already said, this is supposed to be a learning experience, the goal is not to build a fire-breathing, tarmac-ripping monster, but rather to get the best out of the vehicle as it was originally designed.


So, with all this in mind, what should I be looking at? I've been thinking Cinq/Sei, Panda, Lancia Y10, but any particular models or engines? I'm wary of older (pre 90s) cars as I don't currently know how to weld, though it's something I'm going to have to learn. I'd love an Alfa 33, but I think that will be a seperate project.

Any ideas?
 
hi.
good plan,

anything with the FIRE series engine would be relatively good / easy, etc

are you in a region where it's mainly warm and dry.. so an older car isn't going to be rotten with corrosion ( rain OR sal****er)

the french market for cars is totally different from the UK..

in the UK a tidy car with a blown head gasket is unlikley to go for more than £100

and would be £500 / £1000 running well, and on a long MOT / inspection test certificate.

Bon Chance - Charlie
 
I'd go for a Fiat Punto Mk 1.

They fit most of your criteria, especially if you can find a 1.2 "75" with a rev-counter and the tricksy 866 cam-shaft.

They're becoming pretty rare... but they're still easy to find parts for, in case your restoration needs some new panels or pieces.

If you can't really "tune" it, I'd instead go for a full-monty, standard spec' restoration, At the moment, nobody wants them; they're all tatty old bangers and most of them need some irrational (cost vs value) level of TLC/dedication to keep them out of the grip of the Grim Reaper.

On the other hand, it is a classic shape, a historically important Fiat model and a load of people "used to have one".... so plenty of chance that any survivors will become low-level valuable again some day. It'd be worth saving one. :)


Ralf S.
 
Thanks for the suggestions so far, the Punto is interesting, hadn't thought of that. Cinquecento sporting is pretty much top of my list, but they're rare here, am I right in thinking that the later 1.1 Seicento/600 is the same spec minus the lower springs and close ratio box? I much prefer the shape of the Cinq though.

I'm in the centre of France, so not too bad for rust, though the sun tends to wreck paint after ten to twenty years
 
If it was me, I lived in France and I had a small budget, I would be looking at the native OEMs. Higher availability usually means parts are cheaper / easier to find.

An AX GT, for example, would tick your boxes better than a Cento or Punto ever would IMO (and I say this as an ex-Cento owner with a lightly breathed on 1108, having Fiats as my daily driver continuously for over 10 years and currently own a car from one of Fiat's joint ventures).


You don't say how big your budget is, if it will stretch to it I would think about a Sevenesque kit car that has been UK registered, that needs a bit of work and import it.

There won't be much this side of a superbike that will be as pure a driving experience as you can get (nor power / tonne). You can have uber simple mechanicals, plenty of space to work on things, the mechanical parts will be cheap.
 
Nope, it has to be Italian. PSA and Renault actually tend to be overpriced, though you're right, there are plenty. Very, very few AX GTs though, same goes for anything else sporty.

The French car market is very different from the UK, well over 50% (I think it has been as high as 80% in some years) will be diesel, of the rest, most will be the smallest petrol engine, which you might not even get in the UK and only a handfull will be the sporty model, with most of those being in Paris.

People tend to keep their cars for longer and cover far higher kilometerage (it's a bigger country), so in general, you get a lot less car for your money than in the UK. That's offset by less rust though.


Import a kit car from the UK? I don't know if anybody has ever succeded, but it's generally considered to be impossible without serious sums of money (IVA to current regs). A classic (30+ years) would be easier (FFVE), but only if the model existed in France.


Besides, I don't want a Pug, Citroen or Renault, that's what everybody else has...


I'll keep my eyes open for a Punto '75', any other suggestions are welcome though.

Budget isn't really fixed, but the lower the better. Anything that is good enough to be roadworthy (valid CT) fetches 1,000€, but older petrol cars rarely top 2,000€ unless rare. You can easily find a Coupe for less than a Cinq Sport, French car prices are far from logical. I'm ideally looking for something around the 500€ mark.
 
Nope, it has to be Italian. PSA and Renault actually tend to be overpriced, though you're right, there are plenty. Very, very few AX GTs though, same goes for anything else sporty.

The French car market is very different from the UK, well over 50% (I think it has been as high as 80% in some years) will be diesel, of the rest, most will be the smallest petrol engine, which you might not even get in the UK and only a handfull will be the sporty model, with most of those being in Paris.

People tend to keep their cars for longer and cover far higher kilometerage (it's a bigger country), so in general, you get a lot less car for your money than in the UK. That's offset by less rust though.


Import a kit car from the UK? I don't know if anybody has ever succeded, but it's generally considered to be impossible without serious sums of money (IVA to current regs). A classic (30+ years) would be easier (FFVE), but only if the model existed in France.


Besides, I don't want a Pug, Citroen or Renault, that's what everybody else has...


I'll keep my eyes open for a Punto '75', any other suggestions are welcome though.

Budget isn't really fixed, but the lower the better. Anything that is good enough to be roadworthy (valid CT) fetches 1,000€, but older petrol cars rarely top 2,000€ unless rare. You can easily find a Coupe for less than a Cinq Sport, French car prices are far from logical. I'm ideally looking for something around the 500€ mark.

Uk registered barchetta...
Should be around 500 to 800 pounds

Lhd as standard..nice punto 1.8
 
Now that sounds interesting :) (add a zero here)

just looked and now it's "summer":rolleyes: they are all @£3K...:bang:

example-http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1996-FIAT-BARCHETTA-RED-MOT-FEBRUARY-18-NEW-HOOD-LOVELY-CAR-MUST-BE-SEEN-PX-/282488961874?hash=item41c5a77b52:g:8J0AAOSwlY1ZIsC7

admittedly the £650 one I'd seen over the winter had a leaky hood..:eek:

but had proper potential in your circumstances.

Charlie
 
Ever considered a 128?
Lightweight, VERY rev-happy engine, easily and highly tunable engine, no power steering...
Standard handling might not be the best compared to modern Cats, but also this can be improved, andere will resultaat in a very 'lightweight'/nippy feeling handeling.
 
A 127 or 128 would be interesting, or even a 126, it's finding one that isn't too rusty that is problematic.

GF has vetoed the Barchetta for only having two seats, likewise the X1/9.

I'm still very very tempted by an Alfa 33.

I guess it'll depend what becomes available, I'm perfectly prepared to wait until the autumn when prices of 'classic' and 'fun' cars tend to fall a bit.
 
If it has to be Italian, small & light, tuneable, cheap and a four-seater, i think your choice is limited to:
127 with a brasil-engine (1049 or 1301)
128 (probably rusty)
Ritmo (also rusty, but with the same lovely Lampredi-sohc, and lighter than you would expect)
The obvious cinq/sei (feels really small)
Alfa 33, of course.

126, 133 and punto seem less suitable to fullfill your needs within a limited budget.

Since you have an obvious weak spot for the
33, do not torture yourself anylonger and go for 1 of these delicate racers.
(My Brother had 2, 1 was a joy, the other was more in the workshop than out of it, seriously!)
 
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(Or do like i did: buy an air-cooled Ducati 2-valve: small, light, easy to work on, a choice of carbs or efi, superb handling, no power steering, not overpowered though hugely over-torqued, suitable for mild hobby-tuning, and SURE to put a VERY BIG SMILE on your face, time and time again).
 
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I'm still very very tempted by an Alfa 33.

I was going to suggest...
the car you already have.. - a rare sight in the UK now 145/ 146

how are they..??

Mine is the 1929 turbo diesel, with front brakes and wheels from a Quadrifoglio Verde (all other suspension and drivetrain components are identical TD/QV with the exception of springs, QV is lower and stiffer)

In a word, heavy, a bit heavier than the Tipo they're based on and around 300kg more than the 33. In essence, it's not a small car, but a small big car, the long wheelbase is quite apparent when you park next to something of similar size.

It's not a particularly quick car, not by modern standards anyway, though 190 Nm of torque can surprise some, but what really stands out is the roadholding. The 145 is a car with a lot of grip and cornering speeds can be high.

There is a section of road on my daily commute that would make a very respectable hill climb (in fact, the same road at the other end of the valley is used as such), the 145, driven without pushing the engine, easily pulls away from other cars simply by not having to slow for the corners. If I push it (something I avoid in summer heat), I can achieve 90km/h by the top where the road straightens out into a long left hander, but that's the limit of the engine, there isn't any more power available (approaching redline in 3rd, not enough power in 4th), it's also the speed limit :rolleyes:

Normally I just enjoy myself by taking the corners fast, whilst keeping withing the white lines, something that is apparently rather difficult (a pet hate of mine).

So there you go, I'd describe the 145 as heavy and "big" for it's apparent size, with excellent roadholding, but not really nimble or quick.

I have a "quick-rack" steering box available, so I might try fitting that next time I rebuild the front end.

I actually have a Quadrifoglio Verde with a blown engine that I've been stripping for parts, sadly not worth rebuilding as it's paperwork has skipped an owner, something that happens all to often in France (especially powerful cars) and means that the car can only really be scrapped (would cost at least 800€ to sort the paperwork out and only if the last "legal" owner can be contacted).

If I were ever to find a QV with a broken cambelt, I'd jump on it, but most of the ones left in France are 1.4s.

There aren't many of them left, around 35 (all engine types) for sale in France today, making them nearly as rare as the 33 (25 for sale today).

So yes, I've pretty much made up my mind to go for a 33, but thank you all for the suggestions, I'll certainly keep them in mind, just in case anything should pop up.

Make no mistake, I'm keeping the 145 for my commute, with only 200,000km on the clock it's got a few years left yet.

And yes, I have scared myself driving GF's Panda 169, becoming aware mid-corner which car I'm driving, though she doesn't seem to notice...

Finally, to misquote Orwell's sheep, "four wheels good, two wheels baaad"
 
Make no mistake, I'm keeping the 145 for my commute, with only 200,000km on the clock it's got a few years left yet.

And yes, I have scared myself driving GF's Panda 169, becoming aware mid-corner which car I'm driving, though she doesn't seem to notice...

Finally, to misquote Orwell's sheep, "four wheels good, two wheels baaad"

thanks for that..!!(y)

my old 1929 did [approx. 500K Kms,
the majority of those AFTER an accident damaged the oil laden cooler hose - did @150 Kms towing in august with no oil circulating..(n)

bullet proof old tech motors.

that was a 1989 /90 - my later mk2 had the BIGGER turbo - went well:eek:
 
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Well, something came up locally and given the price, I really couldn't say no.

So, in the end I've got myself a car that wasn't on the list, but will fill the primary role of "something cheap to practice on so I don't break her Panda".


It's a Uno 45 FIRE.

No power steering, no electronics, no electric windows and, erm... no brakes!

Well, it turns out the brakes are actually present, they just require written notification of the intention to stop, at which point, they'll think about it. Fast pumping gives brakes, but the pedal will sink to the floor if kept applied, guessing seals in master cylinder are shot, new part is less than 20€.

To complete the driving experience, the gear linkage, as the previous owner proudly demonstrated, is mostly composed of cable ties and there is no passenger mirror (normal on French market cars pre-90's).

Vacuum on the delco is a bit suspect, but once warmed up it idles fine and goes like manure from a muck-slinging implement (for 700kg values of muck and a 45BHP implement anyways).

Not found any rust other than on the tailgate, though I haven't done more than feel the rear sills.

Engine is more "OIL" than "FIRE", few oil seals to replace there. I wonder if it'll fit in the parts washer at work...


And how much did I pay for this little Guigiaro-designed marvel of 1980s Italian technology?

100€

That's about 80 quid.

For a car that needs about 50€ of parts and a few hours from a sympathetic mechanic. It failed it's CT (MOT) on both front indicators being broken, a rear light earthing problem and the obvious brakes.

A car that could give someone basic transport for many more years.

It had to be saved.
 

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