What's wrong with the old Platforms?

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What's wrong with the old Platforms?

Strange is accurate, although I appreciate it maybe sounded unkind. I was referring to the way that the company makes a wide range of vehicles, but has been forced into doing so under different names. Ie they make a small car as the Fiat 500, SUV as a Jeep or 500X, sportscar as a Challenger, luxury cars as Maserati or an Alfa, super car as a Ferrari etc.

I know VW group do the same trick of sharing across platforms and brands, but if you take Audi..they do a relatively small afford car (the A1) all the way to to the R8. The rest of their brands do have limitations though. Likewise Ford start with the KA (which is a lot of 500/panda ?) and end up at the GT. Honda the Jazz to the NSX. Nissan the Micra to the GTR. They all get to do this under one name and therefore normally one showroom to display there products. I think the way that FCA is fragmented slows it down a bit. That's all.

FCA are in an interestingly different position. They still have a fair amount of debt, but they are playing to their brands local strengths and it's working well. They aren't getting massive global market penetration for every name, but they don't need to and it's not cost effective. GM found that when they tried to launch Chevy in the UK.

Speaking of GM, the current 'takeover standoff' is also interesting. Fiat are trying to force a merger with a larger rival, it looks like they're willing to go down the hostile route if needed. GM are also setup in a similar way, making a lot of different products under different names in different markets. But FCA need to be careful. Porsche tried something similar on VW. They went round buying as many shares as they could on the quiet before announcing their intentions. They racked up a lot of debt in doing so, got stalled by legal disputes and regulators, then the markets crashed and they had all the debts weighing on them. VW ended up having to take Porsche on to protect itself, but they got a pretty good deal in the process. At the time Porsche boasted the most profitable margins on any car. Plus it plugged a hole in their offering. More expensive then VW and Audi, cheaper then Lamborghini or Rolls Royce.

FCA's Alfa reboot is a good thing. I'm pleased that they saw sense by dropping the MX5 tie-up and letting it go as a Fiat. I can only say that I suspect they saw Tata's turnaround of Jaguar as a template. Stop sharing parts/platforms to cut corners, invest in new designs and platforms that are benchmarked against class leaders, market the brand on history and heritage. They got all this right for one car and then the rest is now following (XE, F Type, F Pace). Ford must be wondering what could've been if they had not been using Jaguar to knock out a posh Mondeo.

The real shame is Lancia. In all the years it seems to not have seen anything in investment and is now almost buried. When you look at some of the cars they used to make and their history. It's a crying shame to see the name in such neglect.
 
I think Lancia is in Limbo a bit. :(

The only model at the moment is the Ypsilon... I think Delta production has ended... and Ypsilon is kind of a Fiat 500 with a badge, in the same way that previous generation Alfa's were not "pure bred" but relied on cheaper (Fiat) components that ultimately undermined the cars.

I dunno what I'd do with Lancia... but traditionally they were luxurious cars with a sporty edge... plus random one-off models like the Fulvia, Integrale and Ypsilon that didn't really fit with that template.

Having said that, the closest brand I see to what I think Lancia should be is Mercedes... so if someone gave me the factory keys and a mission to rebuild the Lancia brand, I would probably use a bit of (new RWD) Alfa and a bit of Maserati to make a C- and then an E-class rival ("Gamma" and "Thema" respectively... though ideally move right away from the old Greek alphabet gig).

Those would need bigger engines though and FCA would have to engineer something out of the Pentastar (Chrysler) v6/8 doodah. Not impossible or tooooo dear. I'd be disappointed if they didn't already have "something" requiring only minimal work.

Meanwhile, Mazda/Fiat 124 looks like it could suffer a fixed roof and some new sheet metalwork to make a Fulvia re-boot fairly easily and quickly. That would give you headline model up front to tell everyone that there is some life in the old dog. :D

Later on, you can introduce your Gamma and your Thema.. to get the slightly sporty luxury saloons Lancia wants. Using Giulia parts and 6 cylinder engines gives them credibility and keeps the "more budget" (Fiat, respectfully) parts out of it.

You'd have to have a Delta.. :D but that might be one to share with any future Giulietta... not the biggest problem to start with.. and obviously at the bottom of the range you could keep replacing the Ypsilon with whatever new 500/Punto's emerge.

Ralf S.
 
Having said that, the closest brand I see to what I think Lancia should be is Mercedes... so if someone gave me the factory keys and a mission to rebuild the Lancia brand, I would probably use a bit of (new RWD) Alfa and a bit of Maserati to make a C- and then an E-class rival ("Gamma" and "Thema" respectively... though ideally move right away from the old Greek alphabet gig).


Couldn't agree with you less, lancia has never been in the same ball park as Mercedes.
These days the Mercedes are heads and tails above anything that lancia would be expected to output.

Even the maserti quatroporte and the ghibli don't take on the mercs more like a middle management BMW.

With lancia's heritage specifically in rallying they should look as some small big engined cars with 4wd. Something hatchback but with big off road and performance potential

Fiat however would never do this, they have too many brands and too much overlap between the brands
 
SB1500: I may be wrong, but I think I remember hearing that Fiat MultiJet engines were used in Astras and Vectras/Insignias, as well as finding their way into Saabs and Suzukis.

With regards to Fiat and Alfa Romeo sales, I will probably be criticised for this, but nevermind: in my personal opinion, it doesn't matter how good a product they create, they will always struggle due to the badge.

In the case of Pandas/Puntos/Tipos etc, they'll be largely disregarded purely because "it's a Fiat". Those blessed with the ability to see past the undesirable badge get a perfectly good car, and in turn, may well become loyal to the marque.

The task facing Alfa Romeo is even greater. Being considered as a more prestigious brand than Fiat means their rivals are mainly BMW, Mercedes and audi. Even Jaguar and Lexus don't make that much of a dent in the sales of those 3. Alfa Romeo has a passionate following, but in this image conscious age, managing to break the brand loyalty people have with the german companies will be nigh on impossible.
 
SB1500: I may be wrong, but I think I remember hearing that Fiat MultiJet engines were used in Astras and Vectras/Insignias, as well as finding their way into Saabs and Suzukis.

With regards to Fiat and Alfa Romeo sales, I will probably be criticised for this, but nevermind: in my personal opinion, it doesn't matter how good a product they create, they will always struggle due to the badge.

In the case of Pandas/Puntos/Tipos etc, they'll be largely disregarded purely because "it's a Fiat". Those blessed with the ability to see past the undesirable badge get a perfectly good car, and in turn, may well become loyal to the marque.

The task facing Alfa Romeo is even greater. Being considered as a more prestigious brand than Fiat means their rivals are mainly BMW, Mercedes and audi. Even Jaguar and Lexus don't make that much of a dent in the sales of those 3. Alfa Romeo has a passionate following, but in this image conscious age, managing to break the brand loyalty people have with the german companies will be nigh on impossible.

I think you're completely right. Amongst my friend group too I always talk about Fiats they want and they look at me like I have three eyes. I mean, they know I've the Panda but they think it's because oh I got it handed down and I'll be off with a Golf etc as soon as I can but they couldn't be more wrong.

I don't even say to them that Fiat is strictly better, and I never pretend they're more luxurious or faster. I simply tell them that 1) they have character, 2) they're down to earth and it reflects on the cost of genuine parts, and 3) they're so simple in most cases to fix.

Personally I started off the same, but since having the car I've really grown to like it and all Fiats in fact, even when I see a Multipla I admire its difference from the inevitable German car parked next to it.

Oh, And I don't normally slam VW etc but when people ask me "What's wrong with a Golf? my reply is always the same "There's nothing wrong with it. It's just.. there's nothing very good or spectacular about it either.

I wish Alfa Romeo was respected more, I think their cars are by far ahead of the others. And they're quite distinct.

And I saw an Abarth 595 today, in traffic. I stared at it, not often I see them here. And in the traffic, I could just hear the phenomenal sound of the exhaust from it as it crept to keep up with the other cars. It sounds so much different to the 'chav' cars, especially when they weld their own too loud for their own good exhausts on them.. Fiat's products are distinct. And I for one like it.
 
Fiats and Alfas are very underrated, and as you've discovered, people just don't understand their brilliance. The motoring press often criticise them saying that the driving experience isn't as polished as the opposition, but as has been said, Fiat group doesn't have as much cash to spend on platforms as the other manufacturers. Personally, given how limited their resources are, I think they do a brilliant job, and make cars that are a genuine pleasure to own and drive.
 
Fiats and Alfas are very underrated, and as you've discovered, people just don't understand their brilliance. The motoring press often criticise them saying that the driving experience isn't as polished as the opposition, but as has been said, Fiat group doesn't have as much cash to spend on platforms as the other manufacturers. Personally, given how limited their resources are, I think they do a brilliant job, and make cars that are a genuine pleasure to own and drive.

The press are simply paid to say what they do, it's sad and it's wrong but it's true - they don't exist for anything other than profit and to say they care more about honesty than profit is to say that Fiat care more about making us all cars than their profit which simply isn't true of any large, successful company! You can see the same is true for technology too, the likes of pay from Samsung to promote their products etc. As an Apple fan, I'd like to think they don't but they probably do it too.

The best consumers do their own homework, and trust their gut feeling I guess.

Personally when I look at my car and think about the state Fiat was in financially at the time, I think they did a damn good job of getting it together and building something solid as a rock, functional as a Swiss army knife and economical as cheap technology can make it, capitalizing on their best assets like the reliable FIRE engine as well as pioneering its Multijet - and you're right, the MJ is one example of how when Fiat does put its money and mind to it, it can revolutionize with technological advancements as well as any!

Or maybe it just doesn't take much to please the Fiat owner, maybe we're just content and don't feel the need to show off, or justify our masculinity with a huge, turbocharged diesel. Maybe the fact our simple, basic petrol engines work is good enough for us, and that they work well at good cost. And maybe we enjoy being less common on the road, and a little odd to look at compared to the vast array of German metal moving about around us :cool:

All I know is that I want my next car to be a Fiat, whether it be a Panda, Punto, 500, 500L, X, Tipo, 124 or anything to come.

It would take one huge damn disappointment in my current Panda to change that, or one huge change in Fiats direction, and I think if that happens I won't be the only one. But Fiat are never successful when they try to be German, which IMO is a good thing, let's just hope it doesnt take the company under though!
 
SB1500: on YouTube, check out a channel called AutoExpertTV. It's an independant Australian car journalist, who isn't afraid to speak his mind. He often mentions what goes on in commercial car reviews.
 
Actually saw an advert on TV at the weekend for Tipo, not the most inspiring advert ever but they're all basically the same anyway, so at least Fiat are putting some effort into advertising something that's not a 500.


Fiat usually do advertise when they first bring out a new model but only for a few months, then they sit back rub their hands and thinks "there, that's enough, people should come now for the next 5 years or so"


The new panda in 2011, no longer advertised.
The punto given a revamp in 2012, barely advertised a all
Can't remember the last time I saw an advert for the 500L which went on sale only in 2013.
The 500x seems to have dropped off their radar as well.
Fiat just don't seem to get it

SB1500: on YouTube, check out a channel called AutoExpertTV. It's an independant Australian car journalist, who isn't afraid to speak his mind. He often mentions what goes on in commercial car reviews.


I Watched one of his videos out of interest and to call him a car journalist would be quite a stretch, he seems to hate everything with 4 wheels and after he'd described 3 cars from 3 manufactures in as many minutes as a "sh!t box" it was clear he was fairly poor at what he does and somewhat lacking in vocabulary.
The other problem being he's in aus where the average German car here might be £20k out there they can be more like £50k one prime example is when talking about the tesla costing $100,000-200,000 when in the Uk they are £58k

I wouldn't take anything he says as having any legitimacy, he's just an angry nobody
 
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so is the alfa mito - so you can easily spend double the money on the SAME structure..:rolleyes:

AFAIK the 500X is also on it..

So true, I can vouch for this. I've a 2010 Mito from new and had problems that I've never had with any Fiat. Lovely car to drive but I think you get better value for money with a Punto.
 
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