Need help identifying year of FIAT

[VFRMike]

Hello,

I purchased what I believe is a 1973 (or 1974) FIAT 128 2-door Sedan in wonderful condition but I could be in real trouble if I am incorrect about that model year. It turns out it has been registered as a 1976 although I believe the chassis number confirms it is a 1973 or 1974.

The chassis number is 128A 2096451 and the engine number is 128A 000 2595891. Is there any way that I could be incorrect in thinking it is a 1973 (or 1974)? Can someone confirm that these numbers indicate it is pre-1976? My serious concern is that it really is a 1976 and thus must pass smog in California (where I live). Yet, there is no smog equipment on the car as this is not necessary from where the car is coming, Athens Greece. I have payed for the car and it is on it's already on it's way here to California, due April 12.

The table I used is located here:

http://www.mirafiori.com/id/table128.html

I appreciate any input you have to share in advance.

VFRMike.

 

[homeward]

I don't know if ePER would be of any use...?

If it goes back that far -- and you can access it from the blue bar, above -- or covers the States: but I've successfully used it on cars going back to 1986 to find out their details, by entering their VIN number (or whatever its US equivalent is...).

If the version on the Forum doesn't work, typing ePER and FIAT into Google should bring up other ones (e.g. Polish and Italian -- which I've also had success with). :idea:

Good luck; and please let us know how you get on.

 

[varesecrazy]

here in the UK,
we have a "classic vehicle" scheme= for vehicles MANUFACTURED before ( march..??) 1973


vehicles Registered for the road as late as 1975 can still qualify,
as it's the manufacture (build) date that counts..,

do a little digging and find which criteria you need to fit,

good luck,
charlie

 

[VFRMike]

Another thought. You can see in this chart http://www.international-auto.com/index.cfm?fa=ad&aid=60 that 1976 serial numbers begin at 1973215 (before mine) and 1977 begins at 2277222 (after mine) and my number [FONT=&quot]2096451 is clearly between those two numbers. All the serial numbers run in order. It seems that although the 128A chassis type indicates it is a 1971 - 1974, the serial number indicates it is a 1976. I have never seen anything like this before. Is it a 1976 or not?

Mine has all the indicators of a Series-1 FIAT, which were produced pre-1976, such as round head lights, thin front bumper, round turn indicator blinkers on the front fenders, front grill, and some other features. The Series-2 FIAT, which started in 1976 had a significantly different look with rectangular front lights, a very thick front bumper, different turn indicator lights, and some other differences.

Here is a series-1 picture: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Fiat_128_2_door_Graham_Ruckert.jpg

Here is a series-2 picture: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Fiat_128-Mk2_Front-view.JPG

Here is my car: http://www.flickr.com/photos/37210452@N06/sets/72157638787594923/

From the pictures you can see that the grill currently shown on mine is different but the original grill is being sent with the car and it is a series-1 grill. But, clearly mine is a Series-1 FIAT.

So, what are your thoughts? Is it a pre-1976?

Thanks!

VFRMike.
[/FONT]

 

[varesecrazy]

I'm afraid I , and 95% of others on this forum , are too young to know/ remember..,

do the classic 500 people in the US ( Mr. FIAT..??) have access to such info..??,

Charlie

 

[VFRMike]

One thing I'd like to add is that the tables I am using to determine which year the serial number corresponds to is for FIATs sold in the USA and this car was never sold and have never been in the USA. In addition, I was able to locate the spares number, as shown below towards the bottom of the left picture. Maybe this is helpful?

One thing for sure I'd like to interpret on the top of the left picture is the box labled "omologazione" which means "approval". I know the letters DGM stand (loosely) for "Ispettorato Generale della Motorizzazione". However, those numbers 6772 might just be day-month-year or month-day-year of production. This would be what I am looking for as either one of those dates, if I am possibly correct, could correspond to a 1973 FIAT. If you know anything about this DNG number please clue me in.

Thanks!!8

 

[varesecrazy]

Hi again,

the Belgian plate is a little odd to me..,

were they actually built/assembled in Belgium,
or possibly a "coachworks" / "carossiere" had a FIAT licenced contract and built "specials" to order..??

that's ONLY a GUESS.. but these things DO happen.,
that could account for the strange mix of build/ assembly/ registration dates..,

the DGM prefix was how all my 1980's Varese-built Italian bikes VIN / Chassis numbers began.. so it sounds correct to me..BUT - the later - 2000 -on bikes dropped this and used a year denoting letter of number 3 for 2003, etc,

are there any specialist forums for your vehicle..??,
as that MAY be the more knowledgable resource,

Charlie

 

[VFRMike]

Thanks Charlie for your insight and efforts. I did some quick checking and have determined that Belgian does refer to Belgium. I'll also do some more looking into the DGM but I am sure hoping it is a build date. All the forums for 128 specialists are in foreign (to me) languages. I have been translating their pages in an effort to gain some insight but I wish I could ask them some questions as they seem very knowledgeable.

Well, I hope I am able to get to the bottom of this and appreciate yours and others assistance.

Mike.

 

[fingers99]

You'll often find that a post in English will be acceptable (everyone else expects anglos to be linguistically incompetent!).

The though occurs that FIAT themselves will hold the information -- just a matter of getting hold of the right person/department. The museum maybe?

 

[dragonwagon]

Write to Fiat UK - they are pretty helpful when it comes to dating cars.

My guess will be pre 76 but with possible confusin from being assembled in Belgium judging by the second plate. However it would be CKD with numbering in the general run.

 

[varesecrazy]

Write to Fiat UK - they are pretty helpful when it comes to dating cars.

My guess will be pre 76 but with possible confusin from being assembled in Belgium judging by the second plate. However it would be CKD with numbering in the general run.

OK.. so the 1st 3 letter characters denote country of build/ assembly..,
that's a great start..,
certainly down as Italy then.. BUT is that just registered "Headquarters"
NOT necessarily the location of assembly plant,


as fingers suggests ,

maybe try a post in English on a non-english website,

Most europeans get by in a second language.. it's just us..!!

FYI "belgium" is a dual language country;

Francophones - French speaking part (FR)

Walloons - Dutch speaking part ( NL) "Flemish"

your label's address is VERY FRENCH..!!,

but you'll notice the engine No., etc are described in both FR and NL..,
NO ITALIAN..!!

Charlie

 

[VFRMike]

Well, embarrassingly enough, it appears I was incorrect about what year the registration/title will read. I would have sworn I was told that it was registered as a 76, but it is/was registered correctly (in Greece) as a 1973. The registration/title (they are not separate documents in Greece) will show the car as the 1973 that it is. However, according to it's chassis number, using tables for cars built in the USA, it does fall into the 1976 range- strange, I know. Only thing I can think of is that it was built in Belgium and this has something to do with it or that it was a special order in 1976 as a 1973. So, if the registration/title as well as the bill of sale both indicate 1973 and all the numbers (chassis, chassis type, etc) on these documents match all the tags on the car (there are 2 tags on the car) then should I be okay for registering in California? That is, is there really a chance that they could try to match the chassis number with something they'd find online or in their own records? I cannot imagine they'd have records dating back to 1973, or would even want to check for that matter, but thought I'd ask.

Thanks for your input!!

VFRMike.

 

[varesecrazy]

Hi,
( from my dirtbiking past)


US guys who register used bikes.. avoid the city center DMV's, for lil' ol' lady - run outfits out in the sticks,
as long as your paperwork is in order you will be good to go..,


best of luck,
Charlie

 

[VFRMike]

Thanks Charlie,

You know it's a bit odd for me to admit that I have a tremendous bond with this car that I've never driven. Very odd indeed and all the work that's transpired in order to actually receive this car has made me want this car even more. Yes, all the paperwork is in order. I just hope, and cannot imagine, that the DMV would attempt to look up a chassis number. I guess as long as it's registered as a 1973 on everything (title/registration/bill of sale) with all tags on the car matching all the papers then I should be fine. Once I am handed those tags it will be a wonderful moment!

Mike.

 

[varesecrazy]

no problem,
if every item you submit says 1973, why would they assume a different year,


looking forward to YOUR pics of it now..!!


Charlie

 

[The Beard]

I can't be a great help here, so a bit of musing (not to mention rambling) is coming into force here.

Unless I misinterpreted Mike's comments, the third set of photos are of his car, in which case its condition is little short of remarkable. I'd also be interested to know if the licence plate under the white rear plate is Greek or Belgian.

With regard to the maker's plates, as one is Italian/English, I'm wondering if the other is a plate for French and Dutch speaking countries and the Waterloo reference is just a headquarters for the French, Dutch and Belgian markets. Don't forget that FIAT UK is also responsible for the Irish market, both sides of the border.

In pre-EU days there were all sorts of national rules that seem absurd nowadays, but just think back to the Lancia Fulvia Coupe which had headlights at a different level for the UK market than in other European countries, so I'm wondering if Germany would have had a plate in German with the local office in Munich or Frankfurt for example, Spanish market cars would have had an office in Madrid (for example) and so on.

As for Mike's comments about the car never having been sold in the US, I'm not sure whether you mean that your particular model was never sold there or that the 128 wasn't. As an avid reader of US car magazines in the '70s, I can clearly remember adverts for the 128 3P, 131 Mirafiroi and 128 saloon/sedan. The 128s would have had large bumpers, round headlights and there could well have been other differences between US and European models so I couldn't say whether they were pre or post-76 cars. But I would hazard a guess at the former as by 1976 my interest in American cars had waned with the Firebird 455 SD HO, possibly the last of the real muscle cars, and a Chevrolet Impala/Caprice with a 5.7 (350) V8 could just about summon up 165 bhp, about the same as the contemporary FIAT 130 with a 3.2 V6.

Back to the photos, personally, if that was my 128 I'd move heaven and earth to keep it. It looks outstanding. If ever there was a time when the word "Timewarp" was appropriate, this was it. In fact it looks in better condition than my 128 1300 4 door from 1978 was in, er, 1978.

 

[The Beard]

Looking at the photos again, yellow tinted fog/spot lights were a legal requirement in France and Belgium at one time which might be another clue as to its early life.

Anther line of thought could well be that it was a military or diplomatic sale as Brussels is the headquarters of NATO and there would have been a ready market with thousands of army, navy and air force of many different nations stationed there. Waterloo is not very far away so may have been FIAT's Diplomatic/Military sales offices. Greece has been a member since the early '50s.

 

[VFRMike]

@ The Beard: Thanks for taking an interest in my FIAT and thanks again for the compliments. Yes, it truly is a time warp and I simply cannot wait for this wonderful car to arrive. The actual date of arrival is now the 13th of April, having moved from the 12th of April. So, I now have Greek registration, recently just re-registrared as a Historical Vehicle, showing it is in fact a 1973. So, there should be no worries.

The original black plate under the white one is coming with the car and is original to the car. It is in pristine condition I am told- I am fortunate indeed to be able to acquire this small, but significant, detail. The yellow fog lights are simply a recent add-on. I am not sure if I like them, if I prefer clear lenses, or if I will just remove them. I am very much into originality, so odds are they may come off. In fact, (and should I actually be admitting this?) I will even clean up an old worm washer, let alone a much bigger part, and re-use it instead of putting another new one on. I guess it's the sentimental side of me.

I still think it was quite risky or me to purchase a car sight-unseen from half way across the world. And then ship it (in it's own 20' shipping container) given I have never shipped or done anything close to this in my life. There was simply something very special about this car. I was immediately bonded with this humble car and can't really explain it. The financial timing for purchasing this car was absolutely terrible given we've put our house on the market and will be acquiring a new home very soon. I even ensured the new home had a garage big enough (4-car + motorcycle parking) to hold this special car. I told my realtor that if it did not have enough room for the addition of this FIAT then I was not interested in the home as this car will be garaged.

I should have the car home in about 3 weeks and am excited to say the least! I have not decided if I will tow it back on a flat bed trailer behind my truck or simply drive it home down scenic HWY-1, on the Central Coast of California. The previous owner indicates that it drives as new, and I have numerous videos of it running, driving, shifting through the gears, etc. It really does seem to operate as new so it would probably be fine. I just don't want to put too many miles on it.

VFRMike.

 

[The Beard]

I wouldn't worry too much about mileage, 1800 kms is only just over 1000 miles. What I do find interesting is that it has a rear fog light which wouldn't have been fitted originally, its new style plates and the new tyres. I wonder if they've been fitted in the light of the decision to sell.

Although the front fog lights my be more recent, yellow tinted auxiliary lights were quite common in Europe in the '70s so they'd (subjectively) look ok.

Please keep us up to date when she arrives.

 

[VFRMike]

He indicated that he'd recently added the rear fog light at the same time he added the front rally lights. He also added the mud flaps too and I will leave them on for protection. There's a good chance the rear fog light may come off if the front rally lights come off. The rear white plate that is on top of the original (Italian) black plate is actually a Greece plate. The person I purchased it from had driven the car for about a year after he acquired it from the heir of the original owners collection. He also indicated that he added new shocks, new tires, new stainless steel exhaust system, new timing belt, complete service, and much more since he did drive it a couple of days per week. The car also will come with 3 front grills, 3 new hubcaps (12 total), and the original steel wheels. On the car will be refurbished original Cromodoras and they look really good. The radio is one of the best parts mostly due to its originality. It is a middle-wave radio though so I don't know what reception will be like. No matter what, it's staying in the car though.