Look at what the technicians are driving, thats a good clue to the reliability of the brand.....simples
Are Fiat that Scared?
- Thread starter AndyRKett
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Are Fiat that Scared?
Look at what the technicians are driving, thats a good clue to the reliability of the brand.....simples
I agree that moving the Ypsilon to 4 door instead of 2 door is good because it means it & the 500 each have their own target market rather than treading on eachothers toes. I just don't know about the decision to use a TwinAir but not a 1.4. I think a 1.4 would be a sensible option bearing in mind that i suspect some buyers might 'think' that a 0.8 (TwinAir) is too small, even if it probably does cope fine. Another issue with the TwinAir could be the noise. It's a fun noise, but the Ypsilon is meant to be luxury in a small package & the raucous nature of the TwinAir isn't what i'd put with a luxury package. The 1.4 is put in the 500 which is built in the same factory as the Ypsilon (Tychy, Poland) so i find the decision to leave it out very odd.
I can't comment on build quality other than initial tests saying it was abit creaky inside, but if it's built in the 500/Panda/Ka plant i can't see build problems being more than just the workforce getting used to a new product after years of the Panda & 500.
Seems like alot of the Jeep/Chrysler dealers across the country are Kings. Not sure what kinda reputation they have, though if they're good it wouldn't hurt to share sites across the Fiat Group brands to plug the gaps in the Fiat and (especially) Alfa dealer network, as some areas (like where i live) have no Alfa coverage within an hours drive.
On a positive note i saw my first Chrysler Delta on the road last night, near Oxford. The front lights & LEDs look really good, i like it. Hope the recent TV advertising will see a few 12 plate Chryslers appearing soon.
I think the answer to that was on top gear when they road tested the new panda, yes it was great and got a excellent review (and rightly so) but put 4 big adults in it and it doubles it's standing quarter time!
deltashad
New member
Its great that they've planted the seed.
I've owned lancia's since I was 18, that's 20 years. My present one is a late 1993 car, the first of the last integrale's. Just like every other Lancia I have owned it is a wonderful car to drive, its stylish, luxurious (for a '93 car) and holds its own on the road when pushed hard. That's what I like about them. Also that they're rare. I like having something different.
Rust. Yes it's rusty. At the moment it's sitting in my garage and the next time it comes out it'll be going straight to the bodyshop to be stripped and de-rotted.
But it's a 93 car. Its never had serious treatment before, how many 93 cars do you know that are still on the road and have no rust. Every car in the 70's and 80's rusted. 90's too. Every car, BMW, Mercedes, Ford, the lot of them. They ALL RUST.
I really like the Epsylon, it's a trendy little city car.
The Delta isn't to my taste. I can't quite understand how I feel about it. It looks cumbersome and 'nose heavy'. But at the same time I think it has a style to it.
The 300c is a great looking car. It looks like it should be driven by a gangster.
The grand Voyager looks crap. Its an MPV for a start, then it is also worse looking than every other MPV. I dont care how good it is. It looks crap.
Its a start though. I didn't think I'd ever see lancia back in the UK in my lifetime. As far as I'm concerned Lancia is back, with two cars, the Epsylon and Delta. Would I buy one? No. Not unless I was in the market for a brand new cheap small car. I dont think I'll ever be in the market for one of those. I'll stick to my classic integrale evo2 and my German barge coupe.
Give it a few years and if they come out with an interesting car I'll get one.
They should be called Lancia's though. I think we're all past the old Lancia rusts b0ll0x.
I've owned lancia's since I was 18, that's 20 years. My present one is a late 1993 car, the first of the last integrale's. Just like every other Lancia I have owned it is a wonderful car to drive, its stylish, luxurious (for a '93 car) and holds its own on the road when pushed hard. That's what I like about them. Also that they're rare. I like having something different.
Rust. Yes it's rusty. At the moment it's sitting in my garage and the next time it comes out it'll be going straight to the bodyshop to be stripped and de-rotted.
But it's a 93 car. Its never had serious treatment before, how many 93 cars do you know that are still on the road and have no rust. Every car in the 70's and 80's rusted. 90's too. Every car, BMW, Mercedes, Ford, the lot of them. They ALL RUST.
I really like the Epsylon, it's a trendy little city car.
The Delta isn't to my taste. I can't quite understand how I feel about it. It looks cumbersome and 'nose heavy'. But at the same time I think it has a style to it.
The 300c is a great looking car. It looks like it should be driven by a gangster.
The grand Voyager looks crap. Its an MPV for a start, then it is also worse looking than every other MPV. I dont care how good it is. It looks crap.
Its a start though. I didn't think I'd ever see lancia back in the UK in my lifetime. As far as I'm concerned Lancia is back, with two cars, the Epsylon and Delta. Would I buy one? No. Not unless I was in the market for a brand new cheap small car. I dont think I'll ever be in the market for one of those. I'll stick to my classic integrale evo2 and my German barge coupe.
Give it a few years and if they come out with an interesting car I'll get one.
They should be called Lancia's though. I think we're all past the old Lancia rusts b0ll0x.
OP
OP
Let's remind our selves just why Lancia is so renowned for rust, this wasn't just a simple case of the usual ford rusty wheel arches or dodgy floor pan of a VW rust for lancia had them buying back thousands of cars to try and save face, this was a serious knock to lancia sales in the uk and nearly destroyed the company it's not something that you can compare to other manufactures of the time, I don't think any other car company has recalled cars to then scrap them
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deltashad
New member
Lancia were marketing a damage limitation exercise. They did not have a rust problem any worse than any other manufacturer. Lancia UK managed the whole affair atrociously.
Unfortunately the Beta gained a reputation for being rust-prone, particularly the 1st Series vehicles (built from 1972 to 1975). A widely circulated rumor states that the cars used Russian steel supplied to Fiat in return for building the Lada factory,[8] however these claims have never been verified and the steel problems are more likely due to poor rustproofing techniques as well as the prolonged strikes that plagued Italy at that time than the metal's origin.
The corrosion problems could be structural; for instance where the subframe carrying the engine and gearbox was bolted to the underside of the car. The box section to which the rear of the subframe was mounted could corrode badly, causing the subframe to become loose. Although tales of subframes dropping out of vehicles were simply not true, a vehicle with a loose subframe would fail a technical inspection. In actuality, the problem affected almost exclusively 1st Series saloon models and not the Coupé, HPE, Spider or Montecarlo versions.
In the UK (Lancia's largest export market at the time) [9] the company listened to the complaints from its dealers and customers and commenced a campaign to buy back vehicles affected by the subframe problem. Some of these vehicles were 6 years old or older and belonged to 2nd or 3rd owners. Customers were invited to present their cars to a Lancia dealer for an inspection. If their vehicle was affected by the subframe problem, the customer was offered a part exchange deal to buy another Lancia or Fiat car. The cars that failed the inspection were scrapped. However, on 9 April 1980 the Daily Mirror and TV programmes (such as That's Life!) reported on the issue. There were false claims that the problem persisted in later cars by showing photographs of scrapped 1st Series saloons, referring to them as being newer than five and six years old. Other contemporary manufacturers (British, French, Japanese and German) whose cars also suffered from corrosion were not treated as harshly. This was possibly because Lancia was seen as a luxury car brand at that time and consequently expectations were high.[10][11][12] Ironically, Lancia had already introduced one year previously a 6-year anti-corrosion warranty - an automotive first in the UK. Whilst later Betas (2nd Series cars) had reinforced subframe mounting points and post-1979 cars were better protected from the elements, these issues damaged the whole marque's sales success on most export markets. However, thanks to its strong driver appeal, the Beta still enjoys a dedicated following today. Surviving examples make an interesting classic car choice for the enthusiast.
Unfortunately the Beta gained a reputation for being rust-prone, particularly the 1st Series vehicles (built from 1972 to 1975). A widely circulated rumor states that the cars used Russian steel supplied to Fiat in return for building the Lada factory,[8] however these claims have never been verified and the steel problems are more likely due to poor rustproofing techniques as well as the prolonged strikes that plagued Italy at that time than the metal's origin.
The corrosion problems could be structural; for instance where the subframe carrying the engine and gearbox was bolted to the underside of the car. The box section to which the rear of the subframe was mounted could corrode badly, causing the subframe to become loose. Although tales of subframes dropping out of vehicles were simply not true, a vehicle with a loose subframe would fail a technical inspection. In actuality, the problem affected almost exclusively 1st Series saloon models and not the Coupé, HPE, Spider or Montecarlo versions.
In the UK (Lancia's largest export market at the time) [9] the company listened to the complaints from its dealers and customers and commenced a campaign to buy back vehicles affected by the subframe problem. Some of these vehicles were 6 years old or older and belonged to 2nd or 3rd owners. Customers were invited to present their cars to a Lancia dealer for an inspection. If their vehicle was affected by the subframe problem, the customer was offered a part exchange deal to buy another Lancia or Fiat car. The cars that failed the inspection were scrapped. However, on 9 April 1980 the Daily Mirror and TV programmes (such as That's Life!) reported on the issue. There were false claims that the problem persisted in later cars by showing photographs of scrapped 1st Series saloons, referring to them as being newer than five and six years old. Other contemporary manufacturers (British, French, Japanese and German) whose cars also suffered from corrosion were not treated as harshly. This was possibly because Lancia was seen as a luxury car brand at that time and consequently expectations were high.[10][11][12] Ironically, Lancia had already introduced one year previously a 6-year anti-corrosion warranty - an automotive first in the UK. Whilst later Betas (2nd Series cars) had reinforced subframe mounting points and post-1979 cars were better protected from the elements, these issues damaged the whole marque's sales success on most export markets. However, thanks to its strong driver appeal, the Beta still enjoys a dedicated following today. Surviving examples make an interesting classic car choice for the enthusiast.
I have owned loads (15 or so) old Jap cars like violets, cherry, corolla, accords, bluebirds etc and they all end up rusting their way to the scrapyard....people seem to forget that yes they were very reliable cars but poor bodywork ment constant searching for panels or do what I often done, had a spare car for donor panels/doors/bonnet etc
jap cars had a worse rep for rust than fiat, but that all got forgotten about for some strange reason even though fiat sorted out their rust first
Ok then, Lancia, right. Where the hell do I start? Well, dealing with the current range, I think this is where FIAT Group are having trouble; where to put all their makes. Surely they must be looking at VW and thinking where have they gone right?
They have put Skoda at the bottom, VW taking the middle ground and Audi vying with BMW and Mercedes, Volvo and the much lamented Saab. What the Italians decided to do a few years ago was to pitch Alfa as the sporting brand, Lancia as the luxury marque with FIAT going for the populist vote. One problem is that the prestige makers all do sporting AND luxury.
The core of the FIAT group products are Panda, Grande Punto and Bravo. The new Ypsilon is very much based on a stretched 500 floorpan.....or is that a modified Panda. The Mito is a Punto and the Delta and Giulietta are stretched Bravos.
The Ypsilon and Delta are all Lancias regardless of badge. The 300C, Grand Voyager and Jeeps are all Chryslers, although some, maybe the Grand Voyager are made in central Europe (Austria?) The 300C and larger Jeep had Benz diesels while the Wrangler (or whatever it's called now) used the VM four cylinder, as of course does the LTI London Taxi.
FIAT has recently bought the 50% stake in VM that had been owned by Penske Automotive of the USA so now this is a 50/50 GM/FIAT enterprise. I wouldn't like to guess whether this is for added production capacity or for their designs - or both.
FPT has become one of the largest engine makers in the world, not only providing the MJ range for FIAT, GM and the late Saab, but also for IVECO, many New Holland agricultural vehicles and they also supply several thousand marine diesels as well although they've yet to crack the leisure marine market like Volvo have.
The winner of the last Round Britain Powerboat Race had FPT diesels and they also provide Ferrari based engines for some offshore powerboat racers. You can buy FPT marine diesels to cover the entire range from the 1.3MJ right up to 13 litre 700hp monsters.
If you look at the likes of BMW, Mercedes and Audi they have all moved downrange (with varying degrees of success) the new Audi A1 being the latest. If they want to take that on, the Mito needs to be a hell of a sight better than it is. I had a Giulietta 2.0JTDm for a few days in January and liked it a lot, despite a 1.4 turbo version taking a bit of a beasting in Auto Express a couple of weeks ago, although it was the car rather than the engine that took the knocks. I couldn't find any common ground with the tester, although his criticism of a lack of rear headroon I couldn't really argue with as, with the exception of my Brother-in-law, none of our clan is over 5'8". But it almost seemed as if he was out to kick the Alfa regardless of how it actually was.
As for Lancias of old, I used to sell them for a while after previously doing the same job with Ford and must say that apart from the 1.4 Delta, that entire range was better than the Escort of the day. The only thing the Escort had over the Delta was a bigger boot. The HF (and ie) version was quicker, handled better than the XR3i and was more practical. In fact the HF handled and held the road better than the XR3 with tyres that were two sizes smaller. The Thema was classier than the Granada/Scorpio and also had the benefit of being a traditional saloon as opposed to being a big hatchback. The only fly in the ointment was the Y10 which rode like someone had welded up the suspension and as for the Y10 Turbo; it was the biggest laugh you could find in the small car class. In fact it was the biggest laugh I could give pedestrians without dropping my pants at the lights. When you first drove it you couldn't understand how it had a 0-60 time of around 8.5 seconds as a950 Fiesta Pop was quicker away from those same lights, but when the turbo cut in.....S**t the bed!
I can't help thinking though, that if FIAT Group want to get out of the state they're in, they need to be designing premium floorpans from scratch with independant front and rear suspension, maybe multi-link, so like VW, they can have more budget models using good theories. VW have also dragged Bentley kicking and screaming into the new millenium and most of the components have come from Audi, the W12 and now the 4.0 litre twin turbo V8. The Wolfsburg mob have dragged Skoda and Seat up rather than have them pulling the German makes down which is effectivel what FIAT have done. Mrs. Beard's Alfa 156 uses IRS with an alloy subframe which is what made that car a much better handler than the Stilo which was it's Torinese contemporary. As a result, the 156 is still held in quite high regard by the motoring press whereas the Stilo was never really liked by those same scribes.
The last basic FIAT product that got a really good press was the last (and current) Panda. Before that you have to go back to the Mk1 Punto which got 4 and 5 star ratings in almost every category it was tested in, the exception being that old Italian chestnut ride quality.
One last word on corrosion. Before we bought the 156 we looked at a number of Mercedes CE models, mostly from '89 to '92. The list of replacement parts they had been fitted with was astonishing. Every one had had a new head gasket and radiator. They'd had new springs, suspension arms, rebuilt gearboxes, front cross members, engine mounts, front and rear wings and boot lids.
When we started looking at the replalcement model, '95ish to '01ish the amount with corroded front wings and bootlids was astounding. If you had to pick on a by-word for automotive quality, Mercedes would be it, but although not in the '70s Lancia league, what I saw frightened me off the marque completely. Mrs. Beard's '01 156 has almost no corrosion at all. Odd how the motoring press doesn't bother telling us that isn't it?
They have put Skoda at the bottom, VW taking the middle ground and Audi vying with BMW and Mercedes, Volvo and the much lamented Saab. What the Italians decided to do a few years ago was to pitch Alfa as the sporting brand, Lancia as the luxury marque with FIAT going for the populist vote. One problem is that the prestige makers all do sporting AND luxury.
The core of the FIAT group products are Panda, Grande Punto and Bravo. The new Ypsilon is very much based on a stretched 500 floorpan.....or is that a modified Panda. The Mito is a Punto and the Delta and Giulietta are stretched Bravos.
The Ypsilon and Delta are all Lancias regardless of badge. The 300C, Grand Voyager and Jeeps are all Chryslers, although some, maybe the Grand Voyager are made in central Europe (Austria?) The 300C and larger Jeep had Benz diesels while the Wrangler (or whatever it's called now) used the VM four cylinder, as of course does the LTI London Taxi.
FIAT has recently bought the 50% stake in VM that had been owned by Penske Automotive of the USA so now this is a 50/50 GM/FIAT enterprise. I wouldn't like to guess whether this is for added production capacity or for their designs - or both.
FPT has become one of the largest engine makers in the world, not only providing the MJ range for FIAT, GM and the late Saab, but also for IVECO, many New Holland agricultural vehicles and they also supply several thousand marine diesels as well although they've yet to crack the leisure marine market like Volvo have.
The winner of the last Round Britain Powerboat Race had FPT diesels and they also provide Ferrari based engines for some offshore powerboat racers. You can buy FPT marine diesels to cover the entire range from the 1.3MJ right up to 13 litre 700hp monsters.
If you look at the likes of BMW, Mercedes and Audi they have all moved downrange (with varying degrees of success) the new Audi A1 being the latest. If they want to take that on, the Mito needs to be a hell of a sight better than it is. I had a Giulietta 2.0JTDm for a few days in January and liked it a lot, despite a 1.4 turbo version taking a bit of a beasting in Auto Express a couple of weeks ago, although it was the car rather than the engine that took the knocks. I couldn't find any common ground with the tester, although his criticism of a lack of rear headroon I couldn't really argue with as, with the exception of my Brother-in-law, none of our clan is over 5'8". But it almost seemed as if he was out to kick the Alfa regardless of how it actually was.
As for Lancias of old, I used to sell them for a while after previously doing the same job with Ford and must say that apart from the 1.4 Delta, that entire range was better than the Escort of the day. The only thing the Escort had over the Delta was a bigger boot. The HF (and ie) version was quicker, handled better than the XR3i and was more practical. In fact the HF handled and held the road better than the XR3 with tyres that were two sizes smaller. The Thema was classier than the Granada/Scorpio and also had the benefit of being a traditional saloon as opposed to being a big hatchback. The only fly in the ointment was the Y10 which rode like someone had welded up the suspension and as for the Y10 Turbo; it was the biggest laugh you could find in the small car class. In fact it was the biggest laugh I could give pedestrians without dropping my pants at the lights. When you first drove it you couldn't understand how it had a 0-60 time of around 8.5 seconds as a950 Fiesta Pop was quicker away from those same lights, but when the turbo cut in.....S**t the bed!
I can't help thinking though, that if FIAT Group want to get out of the state they're in, they need to be designing premium floorpans from scratch with independant front and rear suspension, maybe multi-link, so like VW, they can have more budget models using good theories. VW have also dragged Bentley kicking and screaming into the new millenium and most of the components have come from Audi, the W12 and now the 4.0 litre twin turbo V8. The Wolfsburg mob have dragged Skoda and Seat up rather than have them pulling the German makes down which is effectivel what FIAT have done. Mrs. Beard's Alfa 156 uses IRS with an alloy subframe which is what made that car a much better handler than the Stilo which was it's Torinese contemporary. As a result, the 156 is still held in quite high regard by the motoring press whereas the Stilo was never really liked by those same scribes.
The last basic FIAT product that got a really good press was the last (and current) Panda. Before that you have to go back to the Mk1 Punto which got 4 and 5 star ratings in almost every category it was tested in, the exception being that old Italian chestnut ride quality.
One last word on corrosion. Before we bought the 156 we looked at a number of Mercedes CE models, mostly from '89 to '92. The list of replacement parts they had been fitted with was astonishing. Every one had had a new head gasket and radiator. They'd had new springs, suspension arms, rebuilt gearboxes, front cross members, engine mounts, front and rear wings and boot lids.
When we started looking at the replalcement model, '95ish to '01ish the amount with corroded front wings and bootlids was astounding. If you had to pick on a by-word for automotive quality, Mercedes would be it, but although not in the '70s Lancia league, what I saw frightened me off the marque completely. Mrs. Beard's '01 156 has almost no corrosion at all. Odd how the motoring press doesn't bother telling us that isn't it?
