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Old 01-10-2009   #76
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Re: Fiat declining warranty claims

Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
The number was 255, and it's not that suspicious as that's the highest number a computer can store in an 8-bit counter. Once the count reaches 255 it must stop counting.
It would be interesting to check out a brand new car and see what is logged and if it red 255 that would cancel fiats claim and put it back as a design issue!?! [retired ex warranty engineer]
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Old 01-10-2009   #77
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Re: Fiat declining warranty claims

Quote Originally Posted by The Beard View Post
Must admit to being a little puzzled by your comment mentioning 6500rpm on a diesel. Most, if not all the "small" diesels I've ever driven have produced maximum power at just before 4000 revs. 6500 must represent an over-rev of about 60%. Is any standard diesel capable of those sort of speeds?
next time you drive one change down to second gear at 70mph an see what revs read, not in your own car though
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Old 01-10-2009   #78
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Re: Fiat declining warranty claims

Quote Originally Posted by Oldschool View Post
After speaking to some of the lads at Stanford Hall it became clear that what a number of people suspected actually seems to be happening.

Quite a few claims are refused because supposedly the engine has been over-revved so often.

As this is a very serious topic: Please refrain from spamming.

If a pattern can be established steps will be taken to bring this to the public attention. This can only be done when we have all the facts and not just speculation and hear-say.

Currently I help Red Dot to overturn the claim refusal on grounds I would call at least dodgy if not fraudulent.
Well use this link for those who are not happy with the Fiat response and something will get done if we ALL put posts [that apply to us] to :http://www.bbc.co.uk/watchdog/gotastory/
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Old 04-10-2009   #79
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Re: Fiat declining warranty claims

Perhaps there is a difference of opinion as to what constitutes "over-revving"?

I spend most of my time on an economy drive, 30 mph around town (it's all a 30 zone), gentle accelleration & hardly any braking, just decelleration. I often get a tortoise & hare scenario through the many stop/starts around town where I can pootle through the lot whilst barely moving my right foot whilst matey boy in the chavmobile pulls 15g away from each set of lights then has to chuck out the anchors to stop at the next set 100 yards away (and we tend to reach the last set at the same time).
It could be said that matey boy is over-revving & damaging his powertrain by going from idle (600-800rpm?) to flat out (4-6000rpm?) in an instant.
This surge in power (ha, I know - chavmobile / surge of power???) can't be doing the engine/gearbox any good can it? (I'm thinking about all the shearing forces acting on the components as they are forced to suddenly spin extremely fast).

So whilst much of the discussion here is about hitting the redzone or maxing out the rev counter, Fiat's thinking may be that people are treating their domestic vehicles like a formula 1 racing car - and how long do their engines last without a stripdown & rebuild?
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Old 04-10-2009   #80
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Re: Fiat declining warranty claims

Quote Originally Posted by oldoiler View Post
It would be interesting to check out a brand new car and see what is logged and if it red 255 that would cancel fiats claim and put it back as a design issue!?! [retired ex warranty engineer]
When Fiat first made us aware of the over-rev counter we checked a variety of cars on PDI out of curiousity, and they all read 0 over-revs, 0 msecs.

It's possible to accidently hit the limiter when carrying out a phonic wheel learn, but it would only be a fraction of a second and the speed reached would be the fuel cut-off point (limiter), and not beyond it. Unless the Dealer has done 85 phonic wheel learns on PDI, it's not going to go out the door with 255 over-revs.
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Old 04-10-2009   #81
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Re: Fiat declining warranty claims

Quote Originally Posted by D4nny8oy View Post
When Fiat first made us aware of the over-rev counter we checked a variety of cars on PDI out of curiousity, and they all read 0 over-revs, 0 msecs.

It's possible to accidently hit the limiter when carrying out a phonic wheel learn, but it would only be a fraction of a second and the speed reached would be the fuel cut-off point (limiter), and not beyond it. Unless the Dealer has done 85 phonic wheel learns on PDI, it's not going to go out the door with 255 over-revs.
So what is an over rev? Hitting the limiter, or changing down to early into too lower a gear
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Old 04-10-2009   #82
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Re: Fiat declining warranty claims

Both. Counter starts clocking-up when at the limiter. Anything at or above it is judged as an over-rev.

The number of over-rev events, the engine speed reached, and the duration of the time spent at or beyond the limit is what the warranty claim is based on.
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Old 04-10-2009   #83
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Re: Fiat declining warranty claims

Quote Originally Posted by D4nny8oy View Post
Both. Counter starts clocking-up when at the limiter. Anything at or above it is judged as an over-rev.

The number of over-rev events, the engine speed reached, and the duration of the time spent at or beyond the limit is what the warranty claim is based on.

Which means...

Some are treating their new-ish domestic motors like F1 cars.
Given the way reps drive or people with hire cars - it may be that young Johnny buys his new motor on finance (and let's face it, years ago, new cars were way out of reach of younger drivers but these days garages are handing them out like sweets, as long as your finances will cover the repayments (they don't care that your finances cannot cover anything else)), drives it brains out to show off to all his mates then starts crying to the dealer when it starts coughing & misbehaving. The car is hooked up to the computer which shows a nightly lack of respect for the almost new motor.

or

The onboard software is up the chute and a programmer has told it to multiply rather than add?
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Old 23-10-2009   #84
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Re: Fiat declining warranty claims

Quote Originally Posted by sludgeguts View Post
The onboard software is up the chute and a programmer has told it to multiply rather than add?
Not likely. The clue is in the post before yours. I wonder what the maximum event length recorded is. We humans will think the event is:

IF Engine speed >= limit
__Log(Engine speed,time at engine speed,...)

Then would a change in engine speed. Given this is likely to be an RTOS its probably a state change, so whilst in the state "overrev" increment the time:


IF (CurrentEngineSpeed>=Limit)
___InStateOverRev=true
Else
___InStateOverRev=false


IF (InStateOverRev)
__IF (NOT Exists(CurrentEvent))
_____CreateNewCurrentEvent;
__IF (CurrentEngineSpeed>CurrentEvent.EngineSpeed)
_____CurrentEvent.EngineSpeed=CurrentEngineSpeed
__CurrentEvent.TimeSlices++
EndIF

Where a time slice is the time it takes the RTOS to loop back around to this function. Or its based on a timer.

Now some have correctly pointed out that 2^8 is 256 and therefore an 8 bit register can store 0 to 255. However, that is ONE limit, what about the limit on the amount of time you can be at that limit? This again is going to have an overflow. When it reaches the limit of that overflow what happens? Does it stop recording? Doubtful. More likely it will create a successor event and start counting again. Lets pretend the limit is 10 seconds. At 10 seconds, it would create a second event.

So we change the event:

IF (CurrentEngineSpeed>=Limit)
___InStateOverRev=true
Else
___InStateOverRev=false

IF (InStateOverRev)
__IF (NOT Exists(CurrentEvent))
_____CreateNewCurrentEvent;
__ELSE
_____IF CurrentEvent.TimeSlices==10
_______CreateNewCurrentEvent;
__EndIF
__IF (CurrentEngineSpeed>CurrentEvent.EngineSpeed)
_____CurrentEvent.EngineSpeed=CurrentEngineSpeed
__CurrentEvent.TimeSlices++
EndIF

Well, maybe, this is speculation. But what if it isn't the max speed reached? What if each change in engine speed over the limit generates a new event? In that case as you over-rev changing speed you are going to generate an entire series of events.

We don't know how the software will react. To me, that is the first question.

The second scenario is, if we assume that 255 over-rev events cannot be generated by time or varying engine speed when at or over the limit threshold there are other factors to consider.

1. Does the individual drive like a pillock?
2. Is the information coming into the ECU correct?

What I mean by (2) is the aforementioned faulty rev counter. Or other sensory information that is just downright incorrect. What other conditions could generate an "overrev" signal/event?

This is the old calibration question. Is it like a series of Gatsos as you go down the road picking up multiple speeding fines with one (in your head) single speeding offence? Have the Gatsos been properly calibrated? Would it be possible for the input data to be scewed by some other fault, and in which case normal driving would trigger an event.
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Old 24-10-2009   #85
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Re: Fiat declining warranty claims

Quote Originally Posted by CheeseMaster View Post
Not likely. The clue is in the post before yours. I wonder what the maximum event length recorded is. We humans will think the event is:
...
I'm just your everyday Johnny, know nowt about how the modern car logs events (as you will gatjher from my post).

Although I do see rather a lot of very new cars being driven around by very young people - and they do seem to be treating them like F1 cars.
Today I saw 4 black guys in an 09 plate golf & from a standing start I'll wager he hit the rev limiter on every gearchange & probably halfway through his pads judging by the way he chucked out the anchor to stop at the lights.

What would be interesting, though, is for additional information to be released - it would be good to get the techy stuff for anyone who knows about it but it would also be interesting to get an idea about the drivers.
young lads showing off to their mates?
middle-aged blokes going through a midlife crisis (showing off to anyone who'll watch)?

Heck, the old boy next door to me used to reverse out of his drive by putting the car into gear, flooring the pedal & slipping the clutch - and I reverse out by dropping the handbrake & letting gravity do the rest!
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Old 24-10-2009   #86
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Re: Fiat declining warranty claims

Quote Originally Posted by sludgeguts View Post
I reverse out by dropping the handbrake & letting gravity do the rest!
me too just thing of the fuel and gearbox wear & tear we will save over the next.......4-500 years
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Old 24-10-2009   #87
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Re: Fiat declining warranty claims

Quote Originally Posted by T14086 View Post
me too just thing of the fuel and gearbox wear & tear we will save over the next.......4-500 years
The wear and tear on the fuel doesn't bother me.
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