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Fiat to buy Vauxhall and Opel?

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Fiat to buy Vauxhall and Opel?

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mbarratt2

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I am shocked to see that Fiat are considering a bid for the entire European operations of GM.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8032213.stm

I can see that there would be obvious cost savings through the extension of platform sharing (especially as there still remains some from the ill-fated agreement with GM) and the opportunity to "consolidate" the factory network, but I struggle to believe the EU would allow Fiat to become so dominant in the European car market (they would surely overtake the VAG group if this occurred?).

I would also be concerned that Fiat would potentially be taking on too much, especially considering they were practically bankrupt only 4 years ago.
 
There is already massive overcapacity in Europe. Synergy can only get them so far, and many of the products compete. There is a loyal following for Opel/Vauxhall products - strange but true - and the German government would not take kindly to closing factories.

Any resulting mega-company (it would be second only to Toyota) would have to put some other European manufacturer out of business to clear the decks for expansion. Which other company is likeliest to go under? None I'd say, given union power and government pride and political expedience.

But some other company has to go, and soon. Fiat has some important engineering solutions on the way, and some great new product, which will give it a boost. Id' not bet on all the French manufacturers still being there in three years.

And then there are the Koreans and soon the Chinese to contend with.

Interesting.
 
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From my side of the pond the view is that wouldn't 10 Downing Street rather see the Italians involved in British motoring than the Indians (Tata/Jaguar) or the Chinese (MG). Don't foget, Mini, R-R, and Bentley are all German-owned aren't they? Sure those companies continue on in some fashion and even Jag has reached the top of initial quality in the states (equal of Buick, outscoring Lexus). But I look at it as not only the opportunity of getting Abarth 500's over here but also the actual return of the Opel marquee to our shores, rahter than simple rebadges.
 
I'd like to know how much actual engineering input there is for Opel/Vauxhall from Britain? I always understood that the vast majority of the design and engineering is done in Germany, and the only British contribution, apart from a few individuals of course, consisted of the manufacture of some badges and possible the assembly of some components - or are the badges stamped out on the continent too? Anybody know?

I'm sure the British government would like to keep manufacturing plant open, but apart from some vans, and I think one car, there is nothing much done here now.
 
mbarratt2 said:
I am shocked to see that Fiat are considering a bid for the entire European operations of GM.
Click to expand...
We were talking about this about a week ago here.

It probably wouldn't be the "entire European operations of GM", as Saab look likely to go their own way.

Also, I'm sure "the EU" would rather see Opel & Vauxhall owned by a European company rather than an American or Canadian one.
 
I suspect Fiat still smarts from the SEAT business - they wanted to get a grip on SEAT and cut it back to a profitable size but were prevented from doing so for political reasons. They sold out to VW - who were promptly allowed to do with the company what Fiat had intended to do - and SEAT has done rather well since. So Fiat has unfinished business in European expansion. Saab's a total basket case and any takeover of GM's European plants would have to be accompanied by a good deal of 'rationalisation', so there are still political hurdles to get over.
 
Hellcat said:
Oh my. They made a joke about Fiats rusting and falling apart. How original. Haven't heard anything like that in the last 20 years. Well done them.
Click to expand...

Thats a really good point Hellcat, Fiat have done a top dollar job on putting that demon to bed... in total contrast to what Lancia did.
 
Ulpian said:
I'd like to know how much actual engineering input there is for Opel/Vauxhall from Britain? I always understood that the vast majority of the design and engineering is done in Germany, and the only British contribution, apart from a few individuals of course, consisted of the manufacture of some badges and possible the assembly of some components - or are the badges stamped out on the continent too? Anybody know?

I'm sure the British government would like to keep manufacturing plant open, but apart from some vans, and I think one car, there is nothing much done here now.
Click to expand...
The Ellesmere Port plant builds 650 vehicles a day on average, with 46% of its production exported primarily to Spain, Germany and Italy. Astra 5 door hatch and a van. Luton builds a van. Some engineering has to travel between countries as most Opels are built backwards for you blokes and need conversion to RHD.

Hellcat said:
Oh my. They made a joke about Fiats rusting and falling apart. How original. Haven't heard anything like that in the last 20 years. Well done them.
Click to expand...
And most of us in the colonies hav not seen a new Fiat in 20 years. They have a hill to climb to prove that the bodies will last as loing as the powertrains, we last had X1/9, 124, 131 Mirafiore, and a handful of Stratos back then - most automatically joining a voluntary scrappage program. Teaming with Chrysler is also one strike against since Chrsyler owns remnants of AMC which imported one of only two cars more rustprone than Fiats - Renault/AMC Alliance the other Yugo (an actual Fiat design - whatever happened between design and construction is anyone's guess)
 
Vauxhall are a bunch of turds. At least Fiat's are comfy to sit in and don't give you back ache for the next three weeks. :p

I don't think this should go ahead - Vauxhall Opel and Fiat really aren't in the same league, plus the job losses... so... that kind of speaks for itself.
 
Unions want any new ownership to guarantee jobs as usual. If a company is going down it has to accept whatever it can get, and that acceptance includes the national governments and unions concerned. Whoever takes on Opel will shrink production, because the world has excess production and the losers are the ones affected first by natural wastage.

If nobody takes on Opel and Chrysler they will go down the pan, taking jobs and creditors - all of them - with them.

Fiat has been careful to design innovative and affordable cars and, since the thorough approach to rustproofing put in place in the 90s, they have put their one big demon to bed. Would that Ford and Mercedes had the same intent!

Fiat only really needs a large car platform from Opel, and the unions know this, which is why they are scared.

And most of us in the colonies hav not seen a new Fiat in 20 years. They have a hill to climb to prove that the bodies will last as loing as the powertrains, we last had X1/9, 124, 131 Mirafiore, and a handful of Stratos back then - most automatically joining a voluntary scrappage program. Teaming with Chrysler is also one strike against since Chrsyler owns remnants of AMC which imported one of only two cars more rustprone than Fiats - Renault/AMC Alliance the other Yugo (an actual Fiat design - whatever happened between design and construction is anyone's guess)
Click to expand...

Rusting Fiats are history, like Yugo. Times have moved on.
 
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Do Fiat need a large car platform? They have the Croma (well the rest of Europe does) and the 159. That pretty much coveres the requirement for a this-gen large family car platform. I don't think Opel are any further ahead with their next gen or large car. Insignia should cover Opel for a few years to come.
 
Thing is, the Croma platform is a Signum, and seems to carry a number of the inherent faults. It simply isn't good enough.

The Insignia certainly seems good enough though. Is the 159 really large?

I know large cars are not the way to go, but designing platforms seems, with engines, to be astonishingly expensive.

Cheaper to buy the company? I just don't know.

I'm fascinated by this dealing and know that the outcome will be astonishingly important for world car production, especially Fiat ;)
 
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Ffoxy said:
Thats a really good point Hellcat, Fiat have done a top dollar job on putting that demon to bed... in total contrast to what Lancia did.
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Lancia as a brand, made executive cars, an image like this is easier to lose than it is to regain, shame really as the Lancias are nice! As opposed to Fiat which was seen as a cheap and cheerful cars, and can suffer a slight drop in sales.

Ulpian said:
Fiat has been careful to design innovative and affordable cars and, since the thorough approach to rustproofing put in place in the 90s, they have put their one big demon to bed.
Click to expand...

the tipo was released in 1988 and featured extensive galvanisation, why it weighs a lot more than other cars at the same time. so the rustproofing began in the late 80's.

vauxhall stands to gain (though i'd imagine it'll get abolished and become just opel) they might actually learn to stick a steering wheel in front of the driver, and not off to the side:rolleyes:

vauxhall/opel does directly compete with FIAT so it's a bit of an odd thing for them to take them over, but then FIAT only really competes with the corsa, which uses the same chasis as the gp. (other than bravo (vs. Astra) but that isn't as common over here) be interesting to see what happens, imagine vauxhalls would continue as they are pretty much, but tend to focus on the larger family cars/mpvs. hmmmm....
 
Ulpian said:
Thing is, the Croma platform is a Signum, and seems to carry a number of the inherent faults. It simply isn't good enough.

QUOTE]

talking with my local dealer they said the gm based 2.2jts and 3.2v6 in the alfa's are terrible engines and they have nothing but trouble with any vauxhall parts that are fitted to fiats
Click to expand...
 
maybe it's because I'm farther from Europe, but I just don't see what FIAT needs with opel/vauxhall. I don't see the benefit. The Chrysler deal I could see, because it gave FIAT access to a large new market and the price was essentially free. But even if Opel/Vauxhall were free as well, could they do for FIAT?

A month ago I thought that the rumors of deals with GM brands was just smoke to give them more bargaining power in the Chrysler deal. But here we are, chrysler deal done, still talking about it.


As I see it, FIAT:
  • doesn't need extra manufacturing capacity
  • doesn't need the opel/vauxhall dealer distribution network
  • doesn't need the opel/vauxhall name plates (they just got 3 for free)
  • doesn't need any opel/vauxhall technology
  • doesn't need to look like the bad guy buying up competition just to properly kill them off
am I wrong about this? is there anything I'm missing? Feel free to set me straight, I'm american, I currently have very little exposure to FIAT or Opel cars. Any of the brands' surrounding 'car culture' that I've heard about comes entirely from jokes on old top gear reruns. Is there an obvious benefit to FIAT that I'm just too stupid to see?
 
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Hmm, a question I'd love to know the answer to:

There's a downturn in car markets, a recession - as it were, how come virtually every car manufacturer seems to be struggling, yet FIAT can afford to buy out Chrysler in the USA and Opel-Vauxhall in the EU and the UK?

Surely this will be putting money strains under pressure for Fiat having to pay for investment in these companies and thus being parent company, having to invest money into them forever...
Just where did all their money come from?

It might be that everyone is buying Fiats during the recession due to the fact they're cheap to run and very economical and so Fiat are gaining more customers and the other brands are losing out, therefore Fiat make more profits?

Although I'd of thought there would have been more to it than that? :p
 
Is there an obvious benefit to FIAT that I'm just too stupid to see?[/quote]

From what i read in the papers in the uk, the main thing Chrysler need is the know how to build smaller economical cars. :D Something that Fiat is very good at!! look how many Panda's, Punto's etc they sell!!
Which i imagine would maybe help Chrysler steal sales away from the japanese rival's such as Honda, Toyota etc, and help them to develop models to compete against Ford as well.
As for Fiat it could be there golden opertunity perhaps, to start selling in the USA which they haven't done for a hell of a long time!!
Not since the mk1 Strada or Rimito as it was marketed i believe!! so a return could include Alfa and Lancia?
As for Vauxhall/Opel, lets not forget the Grande Punto is a result of platform sharing between GM and Fiat!! The Vauxhall/Opel effort being the Corsa D. :eek:
So for fiat it could also be a cost cutting excersise in development costs etc..

That just my theory on it anyway!!

Jesus i need to get out more!! lol :p
 
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