I'm not entirely sure whether the Focus RS/ST or whatever would compete with the Mustang. I think it would be more likely to have a go at BMWs and Nissan Skylines, Subaru Imprezas, Mitsi Evos and the like.

I can't help but feel that there needs to be a certain amount of seperation between FIAT and Chrysler. There will always be a market for American cars as well as one for imports. To use a Biblical analogy; Give unto Ceaser that which is Ceaser's and give unto God that which is God's. Or words to that effect.

I see no reason why you can't have American Chryslers with Italian influences yet market Alfa/FIAT/Lancia seperately. A bit like having a domestic brand in one part of the showroom and an import range in another. Which is probably what will happen. A danger would be putting an Italian V6 in an Alfa and a Dodge Intrepid, or whatever the mid-size model will be called as the "exoticness" of the Alfa would be degraded.

On my last trip (alright only trip) across the Pond, I saw a lot of BMWs, Mercedes, Audis and Jags in New York and a few in Baltimore, but the only ones I saw in Charleston were from out of town. I think you could sell FIAT group products in the big metropolitan areas but maybe not in the smaller towns and rural areas so to give the Chryslers too much in the way of European content would alienate a lot of people and drive them into the arms of GM and the blue oval.

Hellcat said:

Why do they need more power?

Is a requirement for all american cars that they must double as race cars during the weekends?

With a lower national speed limit than here for a lot of the country the smaller engines will be perfect.

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We originally needed the extra power because our cars were two to three times larger and heavier than yours. Then came automatic transmissions, power steering, airco, vinyl covered opening moon roofs with coach lamps and feature windows and on and on. A lot of us still drive cars with 5.7 or thereabouts V-8's. Some of us older folks can remember being able to go into any dealer for US brand cars and being able to buy engines between 6 and 8.2 litres, so we're used to having a little something underfoot when we want it. Seriously, compare a Morris Minor to any contemporary US car. My personal favorite American car is the 1958 Mercury Turnpike Cruiser with the 400 (SAE) HP 430 cubic inch or 7 litre engine. Hey, it made sense as distances are long and our gasoline only cost around seven US cents or 5 pence a litre back then. Of course back then there were 240 pence to the pound and a pound cost us $2.80 or so, so the figure of 5 pence is at today's exchange rates as I'm not certain I could figure out the math do get the correct rate for the time.

In the UK anything between 12 and 10 seconds to 60mph is considered a "normal" everyday car. These are perfectly adequate at joining the motorway at 70mph.

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This is considered slow in America, and Fiat has to establish itself as being a cut above adequate and 'normal'. They have the engines, so why not use them? The reasons for underpowered engines in the UK (insurance, tax) don't exist in the US; and remember, tiny engines working hard are usually not any more economical.

In Britain Fiat has a habit of introducing cars with gutless motors (Doblo and Qubo spring to mind) and then wondering why the press reviews them poorly. Both the Doblo and the Qubo have been pilloried as being the slowest cars on the market. Yes, the proper engines were fitted later (Doblo); but you only have one chance to make a first impression so why not take it?

If anyone seriously believes that fuel will stay cheap for America then they've probably been working as risk advisors for banks.

Lighter cars with more efficient, smaller engines are the future. It's better technology. It's less likely to destroy the earth.

Of course you could stay in the dark ages.

A 1.2 Panda 4x4 is inadequate here for anything but very specific needs. To succeed in the US it will need more power, which, given the new technology, shouldn't cost more in fuel - the opposite in fact.

The Tjets will soon be uprated to 135 and 165 bhp respectively, with reduced consumption. Ditto the rest of the engine range. These will also offer enhanced performance, so

Lighter cars with more efficient, smaller engines are the future. It's better technology. It's less likely to destroy the earth.

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is exactly what I have been talking about, and

Of course you could stay in the dark ages.

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is unnecessary.

I think Americans are more in love with the idea of high performance cars rather than the performance itself. During our short (3 week ) stay in the US, what struck me was how almost everybody from taxi drivers to those in big private cars accelerated at the speed of a glacier. Conversly, seeing as the speed limit in Maryland was 65mph, everyone, including the big trucks was going faster than me. Perhaps I was worried the local Sherrif might have been a little too keen to introduce me to his friends; Mr. Smith and Mr. Wesson.

So, slow acceleration but high speeds 85-95mph. My Panda diesel will do 100. This is why I think the US market needs cars with big engines. Not because they actually need the performance, simply that they want others to believe they do.

Mind you, the market survived 5.7 litre (350 CID) that put out 165 BHP in the late '70s as emission controls started to take effect. A comparable Euro Ford or GM product put out as much if not more from a higher tech 2.8 to 3.0 litre motor.

American has big engines because:
- they can afford to run them.
- they like to have enough power to burn the neighbours off
- Jumping in the car and driving for 8hours is normal (usually with atleast 4 supersize occupants)

Most of us are struggling to our fiats to start up and run after 40000miles and 3 years this is not the way to crack the US. This is why most euro brands are seen as unreliable over there, forget the 'feel' of the plastic trim the cars have to cover distance, the A/C has to work everytime it is switched on, suspension bushes are not a service part, neither are powersteering pumps or any other cut price part Fiat fit because over here there is a dealer on every corner to fix the car.

Here is the biggest sticking point......the US is 100% based on customer service. I work for a major Italian OEM in Italy and have very close ties with our US importer, the Italian way of providing service back-up is at complete odds with what is demanded in America.
Fiat are nearly always at the bottom of the dealer ratings and customer satisfaction in the JD power surveys, let Fiat listen to Chrysler on this point and we might all benefit!!


I was wondering if just Alfa or just Fiat might go to the states, 1 new Italian brand is probably enough to get the sales kicked off.

Alfa IS going to the states and some of them will be made there. The brand is not exactly new there even though none have been sold for some yearxs now except for a handful of the new 8C models that are sold and serviced at Ferrari/Maserati garages.

Other than the 500, I suspect that present Fiats sold in the USA will have Mopar badging; Chrysler, Dodge, Jeep.

ivantate said:

American has big engines because:
- they can afford to run them.
- they like to have enough power to burn the neighbours off
- Jumping in the car and driving for 8hours is normal (usually with atleast 4 supersize occupants)

Most of us are struggling to our fiats to start up and run after 40000miles and 3 years this is not the way to crack the US. This is why most euro brands are seen as unreliable over there, forget the 'feel' of the plastic trim the cars have to cover distance, the A/C has to work everytime it is switched on, suspension bushes are not a service part, neither are powersteering pumps or any other cut price part Fiat fit because over here there is a dealer on every corner to fix the car.

Here is the biggest sticking point......the US is 100% based on customer service. I work for a major Italian OEM in Italy and have very close ties with our US importer, the Italian way of providing service back-up is at complete odds with what is demanded in America.
Fiat are nearly always at the bottom of the dealer ratings and customer satisfaction in the JD power surveys, let Fiat listen to Chrysler on this point and we might all benefit!!

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Struggling to start and run a 3 year old car? You got a duff one there mate...
American mileages are higher but to rack up a high mileage you need to spend a lot of time on the interstate...which is not exactly a car breaker the car gets warmed up so exhaust is happy, brakes and suspension are hardly punished at all and the engine gets to sit at a nice steady RPM in top gear. Given those conditions wear and tear on a car thats done 150k+ will probably be less than a car thats done a third less mileage going 'round the doors' in Europe.

What ivantate said about reliability is true though. Breaking cambelts, water pump failures that take out the whole engine, failing suspension bushes, jamming doorlocks, breaking wiper mechanisms, iffy paintwork and samll component failure will not be tolerated, especially in Italian cars which have it all to prove. Don't forget, they have the Honda Jazz (Fit) and a host of Japanese and Korean small cars, and their reliability is the benchmark.

Americans are happy to change their oil three times a year, but the quid pro quo is that they accept no failure of a component necessary to the daily use of the car. Yes, they hate cheap plastics and poor panel fit, but they will tolerate this in exchange for dirt cheap cars that don't break.

It will be interesting to see how Fiat/Alfa specs its product for the US. We know the models they are going to sell, but not yet the details.

How often do you think cambelts go? I rarely hear of them going on Fiats and the ones that do are normally down to poor maintenance, the same with water pumps. Bushes normally go because of the UK crap roads which wont really be an issue on the yanks flat roads, wiper mechanisms only really went on mk2 puntos, iffy paintwork?

You can get any car that will have stuff fail on it. Fiat imo are one of the more reliable out there compared to some of there competitors as much as it may suprise some people.

There are some shockingly broken roads in America, in fact this is a national concern. In the mid-west there are miles of graded roads without any tarmac at all, and the salt used in winter is astronomical.

As for breakages: I have had my wiper mechanism collapse, as have many others, I read of paintwork defects on 500s and GPs, and the list of other problems with GPs is seemingly endless. And the Fiat Diesels have issues with water pump failure which can wreck the whole engine: this has affected Saab and Opel cars too with the same engines. If they were designed so that the failure of one component didn't wreck the whole engine things would be better. I know some of these faults are now resolved, and that the Diesels probably won't be sold in the US, but this is my point: the cars sold in the US will need to work first time out of the box - and keep working.

I am very hopeful for Fiat's involvement in the US market again, but I believe we have to be honest here and accept that there are problems, because only by acknowledging this can the right measures be put in place to correct the situation.

Don't get me wrong, i believe Fiats are pretty good reliability wise, but they aren't the best, and they don't compete yet with the Japanese and Koreans. Toyota is beginning to get a poorer reputation in the US as there are rust issues and some component problems too. This is to Fiat's benefit of course, but there is a lot of competition, and Ford will soon be selling the Euro Focus there too don't forget, and it is very eagerly awaited.

Fiat is working round the clock now fettling its product for US launch. I am hopeful.

I've not exactly done a huge mileage, 40,000 in 4 years, but my Panda MJ has so far cost me a set of brake pads and a pair of front wipers. At its latest MOT test I was advised one of the front suspension bushes will need replacing quite soon. I've never had this before, but then there are more speed humps and pot-holes than ever before round our way.

The Uno 60DS diesel I bought new in 1989 covered (about) 120,000 miles in 4years as a driving school car and front pads replaced twice, rear shoes once, one clutch and the fuel pump re-built. The latter was because someone, alright, me, let it run out of fuel three times and clogged up the pump. The mechanic who used to service it bought it for his sister and it ran for another 5 years before it was written off in a crash.

Put it this way. Americans can't afford to drive the cars they do now. They're already living on borrowed time.

Adapt or die. Now is not the time to look all big and mightly like the T-rex.

well chrysler's dropped 789 dealerships and given those dealers a month to get rid of their stock of 44,000 cars before the dealers will have to take the loss on them. That's pretty brutal.

Chrysler's factory incentives are up to $6,000, beyond that dealers will sell for whatever they think they can get, and the government's proposed 'cash for clunkers' (up to $4,500) program pretty much means that cars are now the least expensive item in America. I expect the law to pass because--well everything else has.

last night I heard a news story of a (somewhat) area dealer with chrysler 300's for under $20k. That's right around the higher range where I expect FIAT 500 territory to be. Suppose it makes sense though if factory to dealer incentive is $6k.

I wouldnt mind a Jeep Patriot if they are going cheap!


Every manufacturer is fighting the same things qualitywise and while there is such pressure on car prices, failures and supplier problems will continue.
I would imagine if every car was guaranteed to sell at its retail price there would be far fewer problems.

The new CAFE standards announced today (fuel consumption) should benefit Fiat.

And when the price of oil rises, as it will before long, there will be an added incentive to buy economical cars.

I know Chrysler is throwing away old stock, but I doubt the Chrysler demographic is exactly the same as the Fiat one will be, so I am still optimistic.

Ulpian said:

The new CAFE standards announced today (fuel consumption) should benefit Fiat.

And when the price of oil rises, as it will before long, there will be an added incentive to buy economical cars.

I know Chrysler is throwing away old stock, but I doubt the Chrysler demographic is exactly the same as the Fiat one will be, so I am still optimistic.

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I remember that the first time around. I think that may be what caused Chrysler to introduce the Cricket (Hillman Avenger) and Ford the Fiesta.

A glitch!

I'm just listening to Bloomberg and it looks like some of the Chrysler creditors are going back to the courts to fight for a better deal. They might prefer full chapter seven bankruptcy to the current, managed, chapter eleven deal.

Watch this space. If Chrysler goes into chapter seven Fiat will just have to buy assets to gain an American foothold; like plant and dealers: Saturn maybe?

This is not good, because speed is important if new cars are to be brought to market in a sensible time frame.

Check the Vatican chimney - proper color smoke now emanating from it. Our Supreme Court decided to not have any say - so today's press announcements mean the deal is going on. http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/top/national/6468692.html

Now maybe we can get our own Fiat forum in the states.