Small cars with small engines, work well on petrol, because they don't waste fuel at low speeds. Note how Fiat Panda 100HP is not significantly more economical than the larger Grande Punto running much the same engine. But the 1.2/60 is considerably better.
The actual energy delivered to the wheels on a small car is not significantly less than a medium sized car which has the space for a useful battery. Unless there is suddenly a huge battery breakthrough, I think small cars will fade out of use because they can't carry enough battery to get a useful range.

DaveMcT said:

Small cars with small engines, work well on petrol, because they don't waste fuel at low speeds. Note how Fiat Panda 100HP is not significantly more economical than the larger Grande Punto running much the same engine. But the 1.2/60 is considerably better.
The actual energy delivered to the wheels on a small car is not significantly less than a medium sized car which has the space for a useful battery. Unless there is suddenly a huge battery breakthrough, I think small cars will fade out of use because they can't carry enough battery to get a useful range.

Click to expand...

Battery energy density is improving all the time, possibly the smallest mass production EV, the e-up! Citigo-E & Mii Electric triplets now come with a 36kWh battery as of the 2019 model. On release in 2013 the same size car had an 18kWh battery so in 6 years the capacity doubled. Not to mention its an ICE platform so it was never designed with batteries in mind. Assuming energy density continues to increase, a dedicated city car EV platform can still have perfectly usable range.
If you consider the Corsa, 208, C4 small cars the EV variants seem to be selling well and with 50kWh batteries

varesecrazy said:

Around here its £15 to charge it..
Thats comparable cost per mile to my twinair

@8 to10 pence a mile..

Most leases are 8k pa which doesnt work for me 220 a weekend soon adds up.. and that doesnt even get me to work everyday

Click to expand...

Ah yes, I forget you’ve not got the ability for home charging.

Interesting thing..not a huge fan but in terms of the direction it's driving the market in this is what is required.

Near 300 mile range and a reasonably sized car for a decent chunk under 30k.



Compared to say a Pug 208 or Corsa that occupy similar price bracket it's more of a "proper" car.

I'd like to have seen heating outlets in the back though given you don't want to be running the heater/air ac on max in the front to get the rear at reasonable temperature for efficiency reasons.

But overall doesn't seem to be a useable large supermini/small family car for the price of an equivalent piston golf nevermind an id3.

Lease deals on the 500 seem to say the upper 20% of battery life isnt covered by warranty..

So needs to be below 80% capacity for any chance of a claim

Obviously if you are tight on range.. that is potentially really bad news.

varesecrazy said:

Lease deals on the 500 seem to say the upper 20% of battery life isnt covered by warranty..

So needs to be below 80% capacity for any chance of a claim

Obviously if you are tight on range.. that is potentially really bad news.

Click to expand...

This is standard across the board for battery warranties, Kia currently offer on their new models just 65% health for 7 years/100k miles. I think Nissan say 70% so if anything Fiat are being quite good by offering 80%. Its pretty unlikely they'll loose such a large % within their warranty periods, Leafs famously degrade faster than any other modern EV and there hasn't been a huge number of warranty claims for battery health loss.

Personally I'd never advise someone buy an EV that's range is marginal for their needs, public charging isn't reliable enough and no matter how occasional it may be you always want that safety net of more range than you need should you find yourself stuck in a long diversion due to an accident or roadworks etc.

varesecrazy said:

Looked at the Renault Zoe again today.. online

Carwow : starting at £30k ..8k pa then 8 pence a mile what happened to 12k pa?

Top gear article says £20k/£24k.. has the profiteering got that bad already..?

Auto trader.. used older cars from £5k..( but £10k with a battery)

Then looked at a 2018 at a Renault dealer.. through autotrader £11.5k.. no mention of battery.. none of the 'spec' options open

Other sites suggest the drivers seat isnt height adjustable

Other info gleaned..
A top.up charge .. giving 80 miles range
Supermarket as their example TWO AND A HALF HOURS..!!
I Could have cycled there in that time - 4.5 hours

Click to expand...

12000?? Surely Sir doesnt intenr to drive more than the average milage. Noone drives futher than 8K these days..... You can just recalculate the costs then. Is this an indication of the planned life spand and obsolesence being lowered. Are the expectations of life span on electric cars even less than ICE ones? If it is its the end of cars as personal transport as far as I am concerned. It would be cheaper to buy a helicopter it gets much worse.

varesecrazy said:

Lease deals on the 500 seem to say the upper 20% of battery life isnt covered by warranty..

So needs to be below 80% capacity for any chance of a claim

Obviously if you are tight on range.. that is potentially really bad news.

Click to expand...

Yes it is I suppose inevitable that this will be the case but it doesnt stack up well against the old way. If the car was down 20% on power or range it would be pretty clear cut, and unacceptable. We are all going to have to adapt.

My sons Audi seems to go as far as it said it would so far but we shall see what the winter brings. In New York state it gets pretty cold so it will be interesting to see, They dont have the lack of infrastructure we have and after 6 months on electric power he seems to have no charging troubles. Hes back here in November and will hire a Tesla he says. We will find out then how it works in Norfolk. Somehow I am not expecting him to find it as easy, particularly as we have no charger other than a 13A socket.

Falling capacity has been around for a while, the original Leaf had a second marker on the charge gauge showing the current capacity compared to new. A certain amount of degradation is expected with age and use.

Even Apple do that now with the battery status showing the battery capacity as a % of new since they suffer the same with age.