Mr FIAT - Your #1 source for vintage car parts

"smart" motorways

Currently reading:
"smart" motorways

I image the road layout has been copied due to cost
Not housing developer is going to want to waste space on things like bridges and underpasseswhen they can just stick another house in that space


So unless they are legally required to do so it won't happen
And even if they do the houses will just get £10k stuck on the price of each one to pay for it
 
portland_bill said:
Smart motorways are stupid and dangerous.

The Magic Roundabout actually works well, for the locals.

I love the magic roundabout its a hoot, my record is 32 laps. Mother in law was reduced to fits of giggles and then tears.
Click to expand...
 
dave said:
these people had cars that were still driveable, the next person may not
Click to expand...

People breakdown on the A47 and A12 daily, these roads don’t have hard shoulders as they’re dual carriageways. Same speed limit as a smart motorway, but inherently more dangerous as no signs to tell people someone is in a live lane ahead. People aren’t kicking off about dual carriageways :shrug:
 
Most Easterly Pandas said:
People breakdown on the A47 and A12 daily, these roads don’t have hard shoulders as they’re dual carriageways. Same speed limit as a smart motorway, but inherently more dangerous as no signs to tell people someone is in a live lane ahead. People aren’t kicking off about dual carriageways :shrug:
Click to expand...
Or lots of the older parts of the A1 very busy but plenty's of section with only two lanes
 
Most Easterly Pandas said:
People breakdown on the A47 and A12 daily, these roads don’t have hard shoulders as they’re dual carriageways. Same speed limit as a smart motorway, but inherently more dangerous as no signs to tell people someone is in a live lane ahead. People aren’t kicking off about dual carriageways :shrug:
Click to expand...

Totally my view here. Smart motorways are no more or less dangerous than many other roads it’s just “new” so automatically deemed more dangerous than what was there previously.

The main problem with any road is the idiots who use it.
So many people in the uk are terrible drivers on motorways even so-called professional drivers
 
Most Easterly Pandas said:
People breakdown on the A47 and A12 daily, these roads don’t have hard shoulders as they’re dual carriageways. Same speed limit as a smart motorway, but inherently more dangerous as no signs to tell people someone is in a live lane ahead. People aren’t kicking off about dual carriageways :shrug:
Click to expand...

usually they manage to swing off onto the verge at least a bit on an A road, cant do that on an M road due to massive steel barrier

People have also been killed stopped on the a12 too hence some of it now has a hard shoulder even though its not a motorway
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.6...PaScNL7dFpWr19ojqg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1
 
Last edited:
dave said:
usually they manage to swing off onto the verge at least a bit on an A road, cant do that on an M road due to massive steel barrier

People have also been killed stopped on the a12 too hence some of it now has a hard shoulder even though its not a motorway
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.6...PaScNL7dFpWr19ojqg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1
Click to expand...


You could go back and forward on this all day, there are smart motorways which have space to pull off, there are parts of A roads with 3 even 4 lanes and no where to pull off, I’ve seen people stuck on parts of the a12 in lane one because they stopped right next to a metal barrier, people break down in other lanes, I watched a sprinter explode in lane 3 once on the M4 in heavy traffic and was unable to get over to the hard shoulder so stopped in rush hour traffic in the fast lane.

You can’t design any road to be perfectly safe people need to look where they’re going and take responsibility for themselves
 
AndyRKett said:
You can’t design any road to be perfectly safe people need to look where they’re going and take responsibility for themselves
Click to expand...

Aye, this. The person behind the wheel is at fault, he/she has to be fully awake and pay attention to what’s happening. I’m not going to go over all things again. Slightly different but on the subject, we have the A9 dubbed the killer road, but there’s really nothing wrong with the road. It’s a boring drive, parts are dual and parts are not. Tiredness is a major factor of accidents, especially with lorry drivers, impatience is another factor here. Making bad decisions, it’s all down to the person behind the wheel.

As said already, there are far more distractions these days in the shape of mobile phones, and fiddling with other devices. When I was out and about driving before this pandemic, I witnessed drivers not paying attention quite frequently. Unfortunately these habits go hand in hand with modern day driving.
 
One other thing to mention on the “smart motorway” front is that the idea is to reduce congestion by opening up another lane they can physically fit more cars on the road, by managing the speed of the traffic they can close the cars up at slower speeds again getting more cars on the road but keeping the traffic flowing, there are equally many accidents caused on motorways where people go to fast or get too close to other cars, the A14 is a perfect example where cars drive for miles In the fast lane never pulling in so people get right up the back of them, someone slows down and suddenly 3 or 4 cars have all gone into the back of one another. What the critics of smart motorways don’t see if the lives or accidents prevented by slowing cars down or by managing the spacing of cars which is the whole point of them.

How do you measure something that hasn’t happened.

It’s a similar situation to critics of electric cars and catching fire. Yes the batteries can catch fire,
How many car fires happen every day in cars that are not electric? Loads but it’s not going to sell papers like “electric car battery explodes in flames”

Man gets killed on motorway is not as saleable headline as “man killed on new smart motorway”

The reason the coroners comment on it, is because if there is a lesson to learn and improve things then they will improve things, but others will use that as a reason to claim that the roads are dangerous
 
Aye, dramatic news sells. Unfortunately not everyone thinks outside the box or looks at the bigger picture. Slightly off topic, but on the subject of news and sensationalism, when I worked in the oil industry, I literally worked with thousands of men. Some situation would happen, I was there with others to witness things. I would later hear the story being related with added extras :rolleyes: and when it was doing the rounds it had grown and grown. I would even get asked by someone telling the story, you were there Jim, isn’t that right? Aye!!! but I knew full well my version was different.
 
Well I've surprised myself in that I find what is being said here specifically about smart motorways and their control measures a wee bit reassuring! I take on board all that you are saying about "ordinary" roads - both dual carriageways and 2 way - and the shocking lack of concentration and observation and, sometimes, lack of car control, observable nearly every time you go out in your car and that very many don't have hard shoulders. but what I don't accept is that you add to these problems by doing away with the hard shoulders where previously they were available. However so much money has now been spent on these schemes that they are obviously here to stay so all I personally can do is to drive as safely as I can with maximum observation and car distancing others will allow me to maintain.
 
AndyRKett said:
people need to look where they’re going and take responsibility for themselves
Click to expand...

But they don't and it isn't always themselves they kill. That is why we need to be protected from them.
We have lost lots of traffic police to other duties due to lack of police funding, The visual presence of them used to make people more aware of their driving and they would stop and educate the ones that didn't. More fines from cameras would help too, they must be able to spot them people who drive all the way in lane 2nd from the outside all the way.
 
Our eyes are the most important part of driving, but the brain behind it is also important, and there is often a disconnect between them. We allow our minds to think about lots of things when driving, expecting our sub-conscious to filter the 'normal' behaviour outside, and to alert us to significant changes that need oour action. This is not a conscious decision to do this, as it sounds ridiculous, but it is what happens. This behavious slows reaction times, often beyond the ability or time to deal with any situation.

We've probably all heard the phrase, "most accidents occur within 5 miles of home", and this is because on those roads we are least observant. We tend to drive on what we expect, rather than what we see. You leave home, same time every day, and the semi-blind corner at the end of the road has never presented any problems. So you travel a little faster than really safe, pushing the risk envelope a little. (or a lot) Your eyes, every time, tell you that you can't see. Your brain overrules this, as 'it will be clear, because it always is at this time'. Then one day you meet a parked car, or someone jogging, walking a dog, etc.

On fast dual-carriageways, there is an expectation that stoppages might occur, so there is a tendency to be a little more alert. On motorways, we 'expect' all stoppages to be on the hard shoulder, even if our eyes tell us there is none, so less attention is paid ahead, only focussing on the car in front, and wondering why he's in the way. Until recently, we expect motorways to flow, quickly, and people are taken by surprise when it doesn't. Yet there have always been moments, when all lanes slow rapidly, or stop, but still most drivers do not consider that a possibility.

Concentration. Most people don't do it.
 
I think the biggest problem is that the majority of drivers are ill prepared for when something goes seriously wrong and I'm not sure how you would go about doing anything to rectify this. People can make a difference and keep themselves and others much safer by improving their observation, reducing distracting activities and positioning themselves correctly behind the wheel. It's very obvious many people on fast main routes are still driving as if they are in dense city traffic going much slower. Distancing and forward observation are sadly lacking. Also how often do you see this "modern" trend (I say "modern" because I can't remember seeing it years ago) to drive with one hand draped over the wheel at 12 o'clock and body squint in the driving seat to allow this? In an emergency where large movements of the wheel might be needed to maintain control these people have no chance.

Then there's the problem that a very large number of drivers will never have encountered a really serious incident. Braking distances from high speeds are a purely theoretical figure from the highway code in most people's minds. They have little idea of what the reacting/thinking distance and then actual braking distance looks like on the road. Add in a wet, let alone, icy road and all bets are off. On top of this you have to add in that most drivers have not had the opportunity to experience extreme driving (for instance, on a skid pan) so when the car does start to go in a direction not intended and panic sets in, they may know that the theory says "turn into the skid, don't brake, etc" but in practice the most likely action will be to ram the brakes on hard - thank goodness for ABS - and freeze at the wheel. My observation from practical experience gained charging around fields in old bangers and then, briefly, rallying followed by an early career in support of motor racing is that you have to actually experience it from behind the wheel and practice control under these conditions if you are going to have much hope of remaining in control when the sticky stuff really hits the fan.

Of course how you go about providing training to this level of competence I don't even begin to make a guess at. However I think there is a good case to be made for every learner driver to do a lengthy session or two on a skid pan so that, even if they fail to become proficient, they do at least know what it feels like when the limits of adhesion and breakaway actually feel like which might reduce the "panic" reaction and enable a measure of control to be achieved.
 
Pugglt Auld Jock said:
I think the biggest problem is that the majority of drivers are ill prepared for when something goes seriously wrong and I'm not sure how you would go about doing anything to rectify this.

Also how often do you see this "modern" trend ... to drive with one hand draped over the wheel at 12 o'clock and body squint in the driving seat to allow this? In an emergency where large movements of the wheel might be needed to maintain control these people have no chance.

Braking distances from high speeds are a purely theoretical figure from the highway code in most people's minds. They have little idea of what the reacting/thinking distance and then actual braking distance looks like on the road.
Of course how you go about providing training to this level of competence I don't even begin to make a guess at. However I think there is a good case to be made for every learner driver to do a lengthy session or two on a skid pan so that, even if they fail to become proficient, they do at least know what it feels like when the limits of adhesion and breakaway actually feel like which might reduce the "panic" reaction and enable a measure of control to be achieved.
Click to expand...

I think that when young, none of us are ready for things going wrong, in any thing we do. We can only learn from experience, either our own, or observing others. A motor vehicle has a greater ability to maim or kill us than most of what we do daily. I suppose having a parent with poor driving skills might be a benefit here?

I think it is a modern trend to drape a handover the wheel. No idea where it comes from. Unless it is 'cool', so propagates from that.

Braking distances in the highway code are not particularly valuable. Even if we learn the numbers, few of us can visualise it. I will ask my learners about such things, then ask them to look ahead (when stopped) and identify something that distance ahead. None have had any idea where to point yet. I readily admit, I couldn't either.
A practical demonstration is needed.
I'm lucky, having a nice country road nearby, several straight stretches, little traffic. Off we go at 30mph. The at some time I say, "STOP". And we stop. Leave the car there, and walk back to the 'stop' point. Now you can see exactly how long it took to stop, and anything between will be hit.
Depending on experience and competency, speeds can be increased. 60mph brings a long walk, and 70 or 80 is quite an eye-opening distance. Very sobering, and has been useful in helping many control their speed, and extend their view ahead, both over-exuberant learners, new, and experienced drivers.
I doubt many get this opportunity.

Skid pans are great fun, but scarce. When it snows, rarely here, I have a large car park I use, to get the learners sliding. It is an unusual car park, with no kerbs, posts, trees, flower beds, etc. Speed is kept to 15-20mph, and they are encouraged to accelerate, brake and steer until they reach the limits of adhesion. Then combinations of steering with braking or accelerating. Nowhere near as good as a skid pan, but better than nothing, and free when the weather provides. When we do get snow, I'll call past learners and encourage them to come out to play, some do.
 
dave said:
But they don't and it isn't always themselves they kill. That is why we need to be protected from them.
We have lost lots of traffic police to other duties due to lack of police funding, The visual presence of them used to make people more aware of their driving and they would stop and educate the ones that didn't. More fines from cameras would help too, they must be able to spot them people who drive all the way in lane 2nd from the outside all the way.
Click to expand...

So what are you arguing against? Smart motorways introduce systems to manage traffic and slow cars down and keep the traffic flowing. This is for the very people who need to basically be told what to do. Putting a hard shoulder back permanently is only going to add to congestion, increased frustration and potentially more accidents. Even then there will still be someone who will stop in an active lane, there will still be someone who speeds and crashes. Someone who doesn’t look where they are going. We can’t hold everyone’s hand 24/7, we can’t have a police car ever 100yards

It seems you don’t want smart motorways because they are dangerous? You agree people are largely creative in new ways to injure and kill themselves, the country would go mad if you installed police everywhere to motor traffic (people get angry enough for getting caught speeding. What’s your solution? As I keep saying no road safety measure is going to be infallible but you can’t just ignore the needs to do something, smart motorways are a “something”

Look at how annoyed people on the forum get about driver aids like auto braking they will argue that they are in control and should be the one making decisions on when to apply the brakes but equally people get killed because a professional driver isn’t paying attention and drives into people and parked cars ?
 
jimboy said:
Once a person is added to a situation, it’s only a matter of time when things go wrong, not IF, it’s WHEN.
Click to expand...

Sadly true.
Also sad, but 'driverless' cars are programmed by people.

Now, what would you rather have coming towards you.
a) A driverless car, programmed by a computer wizard.
b) An enthusiastic driver.

Perhaps this should be a poll.

If you've ever had to scream, shout, or cry at a computer, imagine the same, but at 70mph, in the dark, and wet, and a narrow country road, covered with 'farmer's mixture'.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

P
temporary speed limit on motorway
Replies
8
Views
772
Eklipze3k
Eklipze3k
dave
Tornado spotted on M53 motorway near Ellesmere Port
Replies
0
Views
518
dave
dave
Didge3
Motorway Cruising, what car to buy?
2 3
Replies
59
Views
3K
Liquid Knight
Liquid Knight
Modette
Smart cars?
4 5 6
Replies
110
Views
8K
homeward
homeward
Big Black Stilo
smart fortwo
2
Replies
34
Views
5K
dave
dave
Back
Top