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Old 05-07-2017   #1
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Going electric

If you've not seen the news today, it's worth noting that Volvo have announced from 2019 all the cars they sell will come as standard with electric motor, power trains. Not necessarily all electric but, some fully electric and some hybrid, they won't be making any new combustion cars after 2019, when reading around this, I note that after 2021 the emissions standards will be so high that the total average CO2 emission across the fleet of manufacturers sales will not be able to produce more than 95g/km of CO2.

Earlier this week tesla announced the model 3 has passed all its tests and allowing it to go into full scale production this month.

All of he big manufacturers are signalling a shift to hybrid or full electric.

The car that Richard Hammond crashed in a few weeks back, an all electric hyper care capable of smashing a Ferrari La Ferrari, having done a little reading a round this, is capable of some incredible feats and still returns a reasonable range on a single charge and has fast charging capabilities.

Given the above it now seems likely that we are rapidly heading towards an all electric world in the next 5 years or so and by the end of the 2020s combustion engines will be as current as a Betamax video tape.

What do you think about this? Do you object to the loss of raw power and throaty engine tones, or are you excited about what the future holds?
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Old 05-07-2017   #2
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Talking Re: Going electric

I saw the announcement this morning, reading between the lines of would suggest that it's also the end of the diesel Volvo in 2019. No one has built a functional diesel hybrid due to the weight, perhaps they will but seems a lot of work to kill it off in one model cycle.

Regards the loss of ICE vehicles in general the vast majority of modern cars would be better off electric if the range and charging concerns can be addressed by either readily available fast chargers or longer battery life. I see the top end of the ICE market living a long time, Astons, Ferraris even M cars and the like will stay petrol and loud (if electrically boosted) because that is what they are and what people pay for.

The utensil cars end of the market, if it gets you from A to B without fuss and cheaply they'll take off. No one has ever said "at last I can own a 1.0 3 cylinder turbo like my childhood dream" at least I hope they haven't. The market doesn't really produce any characterful engines at this level, usually 3 or 4 cylinder with or without a turbo. None of them are particularly memorable, decent gearbox and pedal set-up is dying art. As a result if I had a viable option that was practically zero maintenance I would probably take it.

I don't even think there would be a noticeable loss of performance, yes top speed is down but 0 rpm torque and no gears means unless you are travelling well above 70 it's going to be faster. Regards noise, well the vast majority of modern l4 cylinder turbo performance cars seem to emit a loud toneless fart with fake pops and bangs mapped in. None performance ones either have a diesel drone or no noise at all. They are even all mapped the same..petrol or diesel big wedge of torque low down leading to not much else. So I guess what I'm saying is engines of character are already dead in normal cars.

Having said all that I'll miss stirring the gearbox and revving an NA engine out to get the best out of it and it is a level of interaction I'd miss on the odd day I'm not commuting in nose to tail traffic or ploughing a groove in the motorway.
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Old 06-07-2017   #3
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Re: Going electric

Quote Originally Posted by StevenRB45 View Post
No one has built a functional diesel hybrid due to the weight.



Except Peugeot.... who did build a few hybrid diesels.


In other similar news today the French plan to ban fossil fuel cars from sale by 2040 that said the way things are going there may not be fossil fuel cars on sale by then anyway.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-40518293

They were talking about this again on the radio this morning and saying how the whole motoring infrastructure may have to change in a period of 5 - 10 years with charging stations opening every where while petrol stations close.

The next few years will certainly be interesting.
Found out their may be a 2018/9 golf mk8 cabriolet, I wonder if it will come in GTE guise
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Old 06-07-2017   #4
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Re: Going electric

Aye, we are getting to that horse & cart versus the all new internal combustion engine moment all those years ago. This has been in the news one way or another for some time & now it's being discussed more & more. Personally the leccy car will happen first in the major cities but when, it's certainly not going to happen over night. To be honest I don't think I'll see too much change in my lifetime. As for driving afar, things will have to really change ie price/range/powerpoints battery life, the list goes on, & of course how are the government going to tax these leccy wonders. Under the existing system electric cars are exempt from road tax. No doubt the government will come up with ways for the driver to pay.

Cars mentioned are not cheap & your average Joe in the real world will require something more befitting a family saloon & smaller.

I can see a time in the distant future when petrolheads will dig out their classic fuel guzzler to drive round a track somewhere to satisfy that need for the sound & the feeling of gear changes & just for the hell of it. I cannot see myself there though.......
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Old 06-07-2017   #5
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Re: Going electric

How could I forget the Peugeot 3008 hybrid...well it took hypnosis and a course of drugs. But no I remember that moose of a car now.

It'll be interesting to see how the technology goes. I imagine we'll be seeing fewer mild hybrids once euro 7 happens whatever that will be. The golf GTE can get about 40mpg in real world use which falls a long way short of 95g/km, it's more likely about 150g/km. Not the only mild hybrid with this issue by any means and all of them fall some way short of the theoretical possibilities. Getting to real world average of 95g/km across a range will be very difficult.

Possibly we'll see more range extender style vehicles with electric only drive, larger batteries and a petrol generator. It's not as efficient long distance but I would have thought they would have the range to complete the test on battery alone and side step current issues.
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Old 06-07-2017   #6
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Re: Going electric

Quote Originally Posted by StevenRB45 View Post
How could I forget the Peugeot 3008 hybrid...well it took hypnosis and a course of drugs. But no I remember that moose of a car now.


Indeed it did happen, and while it's looks may have frightened children and the price tag was enough to frighten grown men to the Mercedes and BMW dealers, they did some how manage to sell a handful. That said I think given dieselgate to produce a diesel hybrid now would be considered a backwards step to many.

Mini have only just launched their first hybrid based on the same tech found in the BMW i8 but offers only 25 mile battery range.

VW is really only dipping its toe in the water at the moment, but the indications are it's got a lot going on behind the scenes to save face following the Diesel scandal. Even the likes of Range Rover are producing a hybrid model and most manufacturers are beginning to offer at least one fully electric model.

Fiat at the moment isn't seemingly doing a great deal, but as usual they do seem to sit behind and then catch up later, that said they do have a fairly low fleet CO2 output so probably have given themselves some breathing room before launching new technologies.

The likes have tesla have really twisted the automotive world's arm behind its back and having out valued Ford and GM recently it's surprised a few people as well. The model 3 is a smaller family focused hatchback with reasonable range and reasonable priced at $35k, so fare they have pre-sold 275,000 of them before one has left the production line, with that sort of support it's no wonder the likes of Volvo have taken notice
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Old 06-07-2017   #7
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Re: Going electric

The first three land speed records were set by electric cars in 1898 and 1899.
A DC motor can produce full torque at zero speed so acceleration is normally not an issue.

Robert G8RPI.
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Old 06-07-2017   #8
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Re: Going electric

Quote Originally Posted by AndyRKett View Post
Indeed it did happen, and while it's looks may have frightened children and the price tag was enough to frighten grown men to the Mercedes and BMW dealers, they did some how manage to sell a handful. That said I think given dieselgate to produce a diesel hybrid now would be considered a backwards step to many.

Mini have only just launched their first hybrid based on the same tech found in the BMW i8 but offers only 25 mile battery range.

VW is really only dipping its toe in the water at the moment, but the indications are it's got a lot going on behind the scenes to save face following the Diesel scandal. Even the likes of Range Rover are producing a hybrid model and most manufacturers are beginning to offer at least one fully electric model.

Fiat at the moment isn't seemingly doing a great deal, but as usual they do seem to sit behind and then catch up later, that said they do have a fairly low fleet CO2 output so probably have given themselves some breathing room before launching new technologies.

The likes have tesla have really twisted the automotive world's arm behind its back and having out valued Ford and GM recently it's surprised a few people as well. The model 3 is a smaller family focused hatchback with reasonable range and reasonable priced at $35k, so fare they have pre-sold 275,000 of them before one has left the production line, with that sort of support it's no wonder the likes of Volvo have taken notice
It won't be mainstream until it can replace most things. At the moment the hybrid/electric vehicle is the expensive one, the high end one, not the bread and butter. People will pay more because it's in vogue but the vast majority aren't more efficient than a stock vehicle could be. When one can replace the other thats when it will have arrived. At the moment unless you've got 25-40k and a drive you aren't on this train.

Fiats slow uptake could be explained to an extent other than the Toyota Yaris there don't tend to be hybrid small cars. Only other one I can think of to getting there is the Suzuki Swift mild hybrid..which sounds impressive in a vehicle weighing 980kg and less than 15k. But it just stores braking energy in a capacitor and uses it to spin the starter to boost the engine. Doesn't have any electric only range at all.
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Old 06-07-2017   #9
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Re: Going electric

My 2p worth. I have owned a Nissan LEAF for 6 months and currently own a 500. What really grabs you when driving a pure electric is how fantastic the driving pleasure is. Instant torque, near silence in the cabin, regen braking, plugging in at home. It truly makes a great drivers car. You simply have to recalibrate your brain when you drive an EV, or at least I had too.

I did miss gear changes though .

I wish Fiat were interested in EVs but they are not (yet). The 500 they have is only available in California as a compliance car.

I have no doubt in my mind the next couple of years we are going to see big changes, its already happening as you have noted and many other things changing. Big auto are starting to electrify, VW are going into it full steam after diesel-gate, Volvos electrification announcement, Daimlers battery factory announcement, Jaguars I Pace shortly to arrive, MB, Audi, BMW, Porsche they are all planning them if not already having an actual car to sell. Even Toyota have reshuffled senior management as they have been asleep with the hydrogen idea for the last few decades (betting on the wrong tech). If Tesla are remembered for one thing it will be the kick up the backside they gave the whole industry and effectively forcing other makers after taking huge market share for the segments they are in. The Tesla Model 3 is being released on the 28th July 2017, that's going to change peoples perceptions. You will only have to take a test drive and you will be hooked. Its called the EV grin...

I see it like this, ICE vehicles will eventually be like horses are today, a fun hobby for the weekend or special occasions for die hard fans.

Manufacturers need to "Innovate or die"... & they are starting too (some of them). Thankfully.
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Old 06-07-2017   #10
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Re: Going electric

Quote Originally Posted by g8rpi View Post
The first three land speed records were set by electric cars in 1898 and 1899.
A DC motor can produce full torque at zero speed so acceleration is normally not an issue.

Robert G8RPI.
Indeed, the thing is not an issue with speed in the use with electric cars, it's down to cost/battery life/ range etc. Of course there are other aspects such as some will not adapt to the whole electric idea all together. Even not having the sound of that V6 or what have you will be for some a missing must have.

Of course the making of these cars is really not that green, the producing of batteries is a dirty process & of course the more electricity needed to run these cars causes more pollution than some would think. Given the electric or petrol juice, electric would probably win, but to get there is not that straight forward.
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Old 06-07-2017   #11
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Re: Going electric

Quote Originally Posted by jimboy View Post
& of course the more electricity needed to run these cars causes more pollution than some would think.


An interesting point, however as the battery technology improves and the up take of electric cars, so has the interest in a zero emission production.

Germany is leading the way on renewables as are many EU countries.

Meaning cars that that will get you 300 miles on a single charge and powered by the wind and sun.

To help with this tesla has introduced the solar roof and the power wall so you can harvest all the energy in the day and charge your car and run the house at night.

Given the running cost of a new car over the years, the technology might be more expensive to start but in the long run it's going to save you so much more. More people can afford a 30k car if they don't have to pay 50 a week in petrol.
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Old 06-07-2017   #12
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Re: Going electric

Indeed again, but I personally think that with all the new bits & pieces shall we say added to the electric cars will not sit well with some, although inevitable in years to come,some people of my/our generation still would hanker after that sporty roar/gear change & doing things to actually drive that chosen fuel guzzler...As I've said before, quite selfishly I cannot see too much change in the years I've got left. Just my thoughts.
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Old 06-07-2017   #13
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Re: Going electric

Some very interesting re-power ideas going on in the US. Classic cars retro-fitted with batteres and electric motors.
Of course the average American classic car started out with an engine and gearbox which weigh as much as some whole European cars, so more scope for heavy batteries, but as batteries get lighter....
Electric classic 500 anyone?
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Old 07-07-2017   #14
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Re: Going electric

Aye, I must admit I'm not privy to all in what's happening in the electric car world. Been thinking about the future when a time comes, for arguments sake, we'll just say all vehicles are now electric....Breakdowns, you are now calling out a sparky. Certain manufacturers of past car parts are now defunct, exhausts, endless engine parts, & the what's the best oil question would not be asked any more... The multi billion oil industry is no more. The list goes on.
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Old 07-07-2017   #15
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Re: Going electric

That's really great news. At least someone is trying to stop global pollution
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