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Going electric

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varesecrazy said:
The reality here is it is a huge step change.. but over a 20 year period..
Look at power/ economy gains in ICE tech since the 80'S
Not to mention PCs and MOBILE communication tech.

If the currently poor plug ins double their
EFFICIENCY.
and double their storage capacity
( should be less than 10 years away..but still cheaply mass produced)


The generating requirement will be reasonably achieveable
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My calculations generously made no allowance for charging inefficiency. I can't really see tractive efficiency doubling unless they go to superconductors and there is not much sign of that at present. Mind you we were saying the same thing about LED lighting 20 years ago. Doubling the storage capacity only brings the possibility of needing double the generating capacity if the additional range is used on a regular basis.
 
g8rpi said:
Doubling the storage capacity only brings the possibility of needing double the generating capacity if the additional range is used on a regular basis.
Click to expand...

agreed (y)- but the people I know who use these cars for daily transport NEED to charge at least once a day..:eek:
If you KNOW you've got several days of running on a full charge,
you can use "Economy7" / off- peak type scenarios instead of plugging it in at 17:35 every evening through necessity..

trouble is - were are now conditioned to having what is probably our most used item ( smartphone) on a cable at every opportunity.. whether it really NEEDS it or not.:rolleyes:


on a side note - nobody seems to have mentioned the "Scalextric" type asphalt mounted charging bars / springs that have been mooted for a few years.:chin:
 
The recent announcement by the government is heavy investment in home power technology, this means when demand is low the batteries in people's houses can be charged then when demand is high the stored power can be used by home owners to run their houses and charge their cars, home batteries can be charged from home solar panels or wind turbines. This will mean the power will be in people's homes when the demand is high, it also means higher charging rates for electric cars when the power from a power wall is filtered into the car without the need for big power cables being installed in to every home from the grid.

As stated the technology is likely going to evolve to meet the demands of the future and people will have to adapt to meet them.

I'm sure people complained about the range of the all new motor car in the late 1800s/early 1900s in comparison to their horse and kart which can be easily recharged with some grass and water, in a time where there was no such thing as a petrol station
 
Not sure they will meet Euro6. Then again, I guess it depends who does the testing.
They do smell much nicer than diesels though.
 
AndyRKett said:
The recent announcement by the government is heavy investment in home power technology, this means when demand is low the batteries in people's houses can be charged then when demand is high the stored power can be used by home owners to run their houses and charge their cars, home batteries can be charged from home solar panels or wind turbines. This will mean the power will be in people's homes when the demand is high, it also means higher charging rates for electric cars when the power from a power wall is filtered into the car without the need for big power cables being installed in to every home from the grid.

As stated the technology is likely going to evolve to meet the demands of the future and people will have to adapt to meet them.

I'm sure people complained about the range of the all new motor car in the late 1800s/early 1900s in comparison to their horse and kart which can be easily recharged with some grass and water, in a time where there was no such thing as a petrol station
Click to expand...
Yes, this is a really important piece of the puzzle. Local energy storage is essential for wide and economic adoption of micro power and is very sensible. Also the need to manage peak demand. The mass supply of enough batteries via new electric cars makes this feasible as can share capital cost and so on across your household and car budgets. It is a good enough idea. Any government struggles to fund the right way of forcing or subsidising something good or bad.
 
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g8rpi said:
More importantly where is the power going to come from?
There are 36 million cars on the road in the UK. If half of those are electric (in 2040) and need a 20kW charge each night (a Tesla S is 60-80kW for full charge, my short work commute would see 8kW in a Leaf) That's 0.02MW x 18,000,000 = 360,000 MW. The current UK generation capacity is 347,000MW WRONG! Thanks Andy I misread table. It's more like 60-80,000 MW (60-80GW). The electric supply and grid would have to be 4.5 times larger! A large nuclear reactor generates 500 MW- 1000MW (thanks again Andy) per reactors even allowing for a factor of 3 (not all cars will be charged at the same time and some daytime capacity can be used, but some plants will be down for maintenance) we would need 100-200 new nuclear reactors. I don't see those on the long term plan!


Robert G8RPI.
Click to expand...


This Video helps answer your comment above far better than I could.
 
portland_bill said:
Whilst the home storage idea seems good, it still needs houses with driveways. All those terraced houses will have to come down, as will even new ones without driveways. Bring back 60's suburbia.
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Well your average terrace has land out the back big enough for at least one verhie be it a yard or a garden..

It's new builds with their allocated parking down the street that will have to come down.
 
The "trucks and buses" Video Andy linked to is utter rubbish regarding the critique of a papers "need 20 more nuclear power plants" claim. Not only does the presenter make no mention of the amount of electricity reqired to charge a car he relates peak daytime demand to night time capacity. This is not valid as there are lot of domestic and commercial users who take advantage of night tarrifs.
He then witters on about how many kettles you could boil if you took 1kWh (nonsense in itself, kWh is a RATE measurement, not an energy measurement) from each of 30,000,000 cars as a "back-up source". First the 1kW needs to havs come from somewhere in the first place, secondly it inplies bi-directional charging systems that can put power back into the grid. (these are available, they use the technology developed for domestic solar) but add cost and combined with the increase in "green" switchmode, constant power, consumers like LED lights actually reduce the stability of the power grid.
He states 60GW typical generating capacity in the UK and tals about 30 million electric cars. This only allows 2kW per car assuming NO other users of electricty (60x10^9/30x10^6 = 2000). This is good for about 5-10 miles per car. If we assume 50% of generation goes to cars then that is about 5 miles per hour of charge or 60 miles from an overnight 12h charge. Not allowing for charging losses etc. Oh and then there are all those trucks and busses to charge!

Robert G8RPI.
 
g8rpi said:
The "trucks and buses" Video Andy linked to is utter rubbish regarding the critique of a papers "need 20 more nuclear power plants" claim. Not only does the presenter make no mention of the amount of electricity reqired to charge a car he relates peak daytime demand to night time capacity. This is not valid as there are lot of domestic and commercial users who take advantage of night tarrifs.
He then witters on about how many kettles you could boil if you took 1kWh (nonsense in itself, kWh is a RATE measurement, not an energy measurement) from each of 30,000,000 cars as a "back-up source". First the 1kW needs to havs come from somewhere in the first place, secondly it inplies bi-directional charging systems that can put power back into the grid. (these are available, they use the technology developed for domestic solar) but add cost and combined with the increase in "green" switchmode, constant power, consumers like LED lights actually reduce the stability of the power grid.
He states 60GW typical generating capacity in the UK and tals about 30 million electric cars. This only allows 2kW per car assuming NO other users of electricty (60x10^9/30x10^6 = 2000). This is good for about 5-10 miles per car. If we assume 50% of generation goes to cars then that is about 5 miles per hour of charge or 60 miles from an overnight 12h charge. Not allowing for charging losses etc. Oh and then there are all those trucks and busses to charge!

Robert G8RPI.
Click to expand...



It's a lovely rant but you've not proven anything or come back with any other data.

But still, a lovely rant.

I should add the presenter, (Robert Llewelyn, bloke off of red dwarf)has been making programs on electric vehicles and the technology for about 7 years, travelled all over the world doing so and spoken to people from battery specialists, energy companies and manufacturers.

You've ranted.
 
AndyRKett said:
It's a lovely rant but you've not proven anything or come back with any other data.

But still, a lovely rant.

I should add the presenter, (Robert Llewelyn, bloke off of red dwarf)has been making programs on electric vehicles and the technology for about 7 years, travelled all over the world doing so and spoken to people from battery specialists, energy companies and manufacturers.

You've ranted.
Click to expand...

He'd be better off sticking to to acting, oh wait that's what he is doing.
I've given data and I am a Charted Engineer.
Please stop Trolling.

Robert G8RPI.
 
AndyRKett;4283827 - kindly stop :thumb:[/QUOTE said:
any bickering.. ;)

this is supposedly a mildy positive conjecture thread..:rolleyes:

BUSES - the one thing - short of 30+tonne HGV's that cannot work on current tech.

the buses can only work on flat 'ish routes..

Cambridge has been trying to build an ICE free Park and Ride Bus .. using KERS for a decent distance between charges.

I've not looked to see how the "Germany-wide" all electric delivery fleet is faring ( Deutsche Post) although a fair degree of "green spin" is anticipated..
Click to expand...
 
StevenRB45 said:
Well your average terrace has land out the back big enough for at least one verhie be it a yard or a garden..

It's new builds with their allocated parking down the street that will have to come down.
Click to expand...

There are lots of terraced houses in the Weymouth area (where I grew up, or at least got older:D) with plenty of space behind, but only a footpath alleyway for access. So electric scooters only for them. There are similar properties in Bristol and Swindon, (A few in Swindon are actually 'back-to-back' so no rear anything) so I'm expecting lots more countrywide with poor rear access. An electric crane to winch it over the roof perhaps? Perhaps the values of those houses will drop as a result, creating affordable housing. So with lower mortgages, the owners can afford a better car. Oh! That's not working.
 
varesecrazy said:
any bickering.. ;)

this is supposedly a mildy positive conjecture thread..:rolleyes:
Click to expand...

Fair point, will call it quits.

varesecrazy said:
BUSES - the one thing - short of 30+tonne HGV's that cannot work on current tech.

the buses can only work on flat 'ish routes..

Cambridge has been trying to build an ICE free Park and Ride Bus .. using KERS for a decent distance between charges.

I've not looked to see how the "Germany-wide" all electric delivery fleet is faring ( Deutsche Post) although a fair degree of "green spin" is anticipated..
Click to expand...

100 years ago I suppose they didn't one day build the perfect system but things are happening in these areas as well.

The most interesting development at the moment is the Nikola One Truck. It runs on a Hydrogen Fuel cell which can be refilled in 15 minutes, and supposedly gets 800 miles or so to a tank. It delivers 1000Bhp and can do 0-60 in 30 seconds (compared to about 60 for current diesel trucks)
It remains to be seen weather it will start shipping as proposed in 2020, however if it does and it works as claimed, its going to be a game changer.
The cost of these trucks however is breathtaking, something like $400,000 however the fuel is so cheap that the companies using them will be saving the additional costs in fuel, while producing next to no emissions.
 
portland_bill said:
There are lots of terraced houses in the Weymouth area (where I grew up, or at least got older:D) with plenty of space behind, but only a footpath alleyway for access. So electric scooters only for them. There are similar properties in Bristol and Swindon, (A few in Swindon are actually 'back-to-back' so no rear anything) so I'm expecting lots more countrywide with poor rear access. An electric crane to winch it over the roof perhaps? Perhaps the values of those houses will drop as a result, creating affordable housing. So with lower mortgages, the owners can afford a better car. Oh! That's not working.
Click to expand...

Lots of areas in Norwich like this, they are stating to knock down a lot of them and redevelop them, many where built before cars existed so you can barely park on the road and get another car past.

That said there is the potential for a kinda American style parking meter at the kerbside that people could plug into in these areas and pay on the meter for charging (which is how most current public chargers work)
 
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