I'm still a bit surprised on how long this is going on & it has just caught up with me that some are viewing this habit as part of the driving test. I've been driving for forty odd years & this was never been part of my test or even heard about it being part of a test. Parking in gear was a personal choice for myself & others pure & simple. The idea was simply added safety if the brake cable failed. Cars back in the day were not really built like cars of today.

Another point for me was the simple fact that I've run a lot of cars over the years just to get me from A to B & parked in gear not to put stress on the brake cable. Obviously there are times you have to use the handbrake, but every little helps to make that cable last longer. Personally I think some have put too much thinking into this practice, when in fact it comes from a time when simplicity was implemented to help the motorist. Simple...

jimboy said:

I'm still a bit surprised on how long this is going on & it has just caught up with me that some are viewing this habit as part of the driving test. I've been driving for forty odd years & this was never been part of my test or even heard about it being part of a test. Parking in gear was a personal choice for myself & others pure & simple. The idea was simply added safety if the brake cable failed. Cars back in the day were not really built like cars of today.

Another point for me was the simple fact that I've run a lot of cars over the years just to get me from A to B & parked in gear not to put stress on the brake cable. Obviously there are times you have to use the handbrake, but every little helps to make that cable last longer. Personally I think some have put too much thinking into this practice, when in fact it comes from a time when simplicity was implemented to help the motorist. Simple...

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During the driving test the only time you park and turn off the engine is at the end. All other stops are temporary, so out of gear, engine idling, so this question not relevant.

It is actually better to use the handbrake frequently, to keep the cables moving. If not used regularly, they can seize up, or at least get quite stiff. It is actually an offence to not apply the handbrake when leaving the vehicle, even on an automatic.
Highway Code, Rule 239.

jimboy said:

Another point for me was the simple fact that I've run a lot of cars over the years just to get me from A to B & parked in gear not to put stress on the brake cable. Obviously there are times you have to use the handbrake, but every little helps to make that cable last longer.

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portland_bill said:

It is actually an offence to not apply the handbrake when leaving the vehicle, even on an automatic.
Highway Code, Rule 239.

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It’s fine leaving it on the level but if someone where to crash into a car parked just on the hand brake there is no telling where that car would end up and what/who it could hit.

I do agree this subject has been substantial overly thought about.

portland_bill said:

During the driving test the only time you park and turn off the engine is at the end. All other stops are temporary, so out of gear, engine idling, so this question not relevant.

It is actually better to use the handbrake frequently, to keep the cables moving. If not used regularly, they can seize up, or at least get quite stiff. It is actually an offence to not apply the handbrake when leaving the vehicle, even on an automatic.
Highway Code, Rule 239.

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Generally question out of interest only, hope I don’t get shot down in flames from certain people for asking this! If you move the gear lever with the engine off are you engaging/moving between gears and neutral same way as you are with engine on? Does it matter about having the clutch down or not! Someone actually suggested to me if you switched off in gear and put gearstick to neutral it would still be in gear until you switched back on! :bang:

MattHarris19872016 said:

Generally question out of interest only, hope I don’t get shot down in flames from certain people for asking this! If you move the gear lever with the engine off are you engaging/moving between gears and neutral same way as you are with engine on? Does it matter about having the clutch down or not! Someone actually suggested to me if you switched off in gear and put gearstick to neutral it would still be in gear until you switched back on! :bang:

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With a manual gearbox you are physically moving the internal components, so yes you are moving between gears or neutral.
As the gears are selected when moving, the speed difference between the engaging components is used to aid engagement. (Google 'synchromesh' for more detail) When engine is off and car not moving, the synchromesh does not work, so more wear is caused as the gears engage, and sometimes will not engage at all.

Automatic gearboxes work differently, and there are several different types, but mostly they require the engine running to select the gears. So if you stop in gear, turn the engine off and then select neutral, some will remain in gear, but will disengage as the engine is started. As this is potentially dangerous, most will squeal at you if you try to turn the engine off with the gear still engaged. Stop/start systems are designed to cope with this.

You are asking a lot of questions as if you need justification for why you were taught a certain way. For all the rules, use handbrake when parking, do not shift the gear lever once engine off, etc., there is a good reason, some safety, some mechanical. Are you trying to break things, understand why you do break things, or just dislike being told to do things a certain way without good reason? Your driving instructor should have been able to explain everything in detail, but at £25/hr most are unwilling to pay when they could be driving instead.

Hi thanks for your reply. Just looking for information regarding whether you can still change gears with engine off. Your answer seems to suggest you can but it is not good for the car. Again just looking for some information not justification or anything?

portland_bill said:

During the driving test the only time you park and turn off the engine is at the end. All other stops are temporary, so out of gear, engine idling, so this question not relevant.

It is actually better to use the handbrake frequently, to keep the cables moving. If not used regularly, they can seize up, or at least get quite stiff. It is actually an offence to not apply the handbrake when leaving the vehicle, even on an automatic.
Highway Code, Rule 239.

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All common sense & obvious stuff. We are singing from the same hymn sheet here, practically. Keeping the handbrake cables free/lubricated has been part of my vehicles ownership for many a year, some of the bangers I've had for commuting required more than a little attention shall we say. I've always had a decent handbrake unlike some I read on here, neglect & non service being the culprit.

All very good down on paper but motorists will do what they want, it would be very hard to police & show that you're not using your handbrake properly (just saying.) I have never heard of any motorist being prosecuted for not using the handbrake. No doubt someone will come up with a story to prove me wrong...

I still think that certain discussions go on & on from time to time on here needlessly & I'm fueling this thread falling into my own trap.....

Happy trails....

My friends son in law parked his Fiat Doblo van on a hill two days ago without putting it in gear or turning the wheels. Once the brakes had cooled it rolled down the hill and wrote itself off hitting a wall. Lucky nobody else was around at the time it could have been lethal.

Liquid Knight II said:

My friends son in law parked his Fiat Doblo van on a hill two days ago without putting it in gear or turning the wheels. Once the brakes had cooled it rolled down the hill and wrote itself off hitting a wall. Lucky nobody else was around at the time it could have been lethal.

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Does/did it have disc rear brakes?
Drums when they cool shrink in diameter, so hold tighter.

Don't quite believe this is still going...

is it not as simple as?...if it's on the flat use the handbrake. If it's on a hill or your last drive was at "maximum attack" then you should probably select a gear as well just in case.

The chances of getting rear discs very hot when the braking force is usually about 70/30 is pretty slim. I'm in the habit knocking it out of gear without pressing the clutch when I do park in gear. For a very simple reason if it's moved you won't be able because there's torque on the clutch. I think in 4 years there's been one occasion when it was parked in a steep car park in Cragside that it moved, but that was on loose uneven gravel so it probably shifted when we piled out.

StevenRB45 said:

The chances of getting rear discs very hot when the braking force is usually about 70/30 is pretty slim.

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The expansion rate of steel and thus brake discs is a well known figure.

A half inch brake disc would expand only 0.08 of a a millimetre if you heated it to the point that’s the metal was glowing (so seriously heavy high performance braking) about 460’C. And that level of expansion is about the thickness of a human hair.

You’d be hard pressed to get the front discs on a doblo glowing let alone the rears, and as you rightly point out the rears have significantly less work to do so even on very high performance cars the rears don’t tend to get up to those sort of temperatures.

So with a properly applied handbrake the brake discs contracting by the thickness of a human hair (assuming you could get the rear discs glowing) in truth it would be far less than that) would not be expected to see the car rolling down the hill as there is play in the system to account for expansion and contraction of parts anyway.

I suspect this is a tall tail from someone.

My guess is incorrectly applied handbrake, or perhaps it was hit while parked, which started it rolling.
When I learnt to drive, we were always encouraged to press the button on the lever to prevent that awful noise of the ratchet teeth, and to prolong the ratchet's life as it was unlubricated. Still a good idea with manual handbrakes.
However, many people will release the lever slightly before releasing the button, so the brake is not properly applied. (Sometimes have to work hard with some pupils to make sure they do it correctly.) This is why now many manufacturers say just pull, making a nasty noise.

portland_bill said:

When I learnt to drive, we were always encouraged to press the button on the lever to prevent that awful noise of the ratchet teeth, and to prolong the ratchet's life as it was unlubricated.

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My instructor tried to teach me this method, still don’t do it all these years later, the one reason I never adopted it was the fairly lame excuse that the teeth would wear out, yes ther would be some metal on metal friction but I have never. Ever known a car hand brake to wear out.

AndyRKett said:

My instructor tried to teach me this method, still don’t do it all these years later, the one reason I never adopted it was the fairly lame excuse that the teeth would wear out, yes ther would be some metal on metal friction but I have never. Ever known a car hand brake to wear out.

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Having spent a fair few years in the motor trade, I've replaced quite a lot of handbrake levers. Never a nice job, working both inside and under a car makes it difficult to keep the inside clean. I've known a few regular customers who always ground the teeth, needing a new handbrake at every second MOT. Most however will outlast the car. These things are never lubricated in manufacture. The plain pressed steel has a film of light oil on it, and that's all you get.

Every car I've owned has it applied quietly.

portland_bill said:

Sadly I hear a lot of snippets about other instructors still teaching methods from the 1930s, like parking in gear, using gears to slow the car instead of using the brakes, driving on sidelights in the dark, stop at every junction, signal off mini-roundabouts, even if already leaving, etc. To me the most important thing is to get the learners to think, not just repeat.

I've met a lot of instructors who will never take a learner on the motorway. Worrying, if they think they are at test standard, they should be capable of motorway driving. If any learner is not capable of motorway driving, they are not test ready. I will never take a learner to test that I would be unhappy to meet on the road the following day!

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Personally I (almost) always park the car with the handbrake on and the gear lever in 1st or reverse. Not because of any particular safety reason but simply out of habit born of driving Mk1. Escorts and Moggie 1000s in my very early driving days. As I think I mentioned a few posts ago I do mention it to pupils by way of general education but don't get them to do it on lessons or test. I think the hope is that if they do have to park on a steep hill, at some time in the future, they will remember to take that additional precaution.

Since I started teaching in,1987, the motto has always been "Gears for going, brakes for slowing" but I do remember an animated conversation about 10 years on here where several members from hilly, rural areas, such as the Lake District and parts of Wales and Scotland bemoaned the fact that very few younger drivers seemed to know how to use the gears as a method of controlling the car, either on hills or when driving round bends; and they were all fairly young themselves.

The fact remains though,that the very people who should have had the best interests of learner drivers at heart, their parents, are often the people who come up with quotes like: "I've taught him/her to drive, can you just let him/her take the test in your car and show him a few tricks of the trade?"
Or, "Of course you only start to learn to drive once you've passed your test"

Most parents want to spend/want their children to spend about £50 in order to pass a driving test and plenty want to have a discussion about the finer points of driving that they think they know, yet you can't teach everything a new driver needs to know during the course of 25 to 40 hours of tuition.

Pass+ exists for that purpose, as do the IAM and RoSPA.

I haven't yet taken a learner onto the motorway network as I still think that should come after the test has been passed, although I have taken plenty on it under the auspices of Pass+ and think it, on the whole, is a very good idea. Plus, although everyone is different, I've always been a bit concerned about giving a new driver too much to contend with in too short a space of time.

AndyRKett said:

My instructor tried to teach me this method, still don’t do it all these years later, the one reason I never adopted it was the fairly lame excuse that the teeth would wear out, yes ther would be some metal on metal friction but I have never. Ever known a car hand brake to wear out.

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Er, my last Panda MJ had a new handbrake assembly at around 80,000 miles after the ratchet failed to hold the lever up, and I always press the button in. The only time it wasn't was when a pupil forgot or didn't press it in all the way.

MattHarris19872016 said:

Hi thanks for your reply. Just looking for information regarding whether you can still change gears with engine off. Your answer seems to suggest you can but it is not good for the car. Again just looking for some information not justification or anything?

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If you don't ask, you don't learn.....Grasshopper.

Gome on guys, the weather's lovely you should be getting out & about more....

AndyRKett said:

I suspect this is a tall tail from someone.

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Now I didn't want to put that fine a point on it...but the only time I've ever known brakes get this hot on a road car was when a new driver left the hand brake for about 40 miles on national limit roads. On that the Alloy wheels had started to melt on to the hub..

So yeah..I think we need to instigate the old internet favourite.. pics or it didn't happen.

portland_bill said:

Having spent a fair few years in the motor trade, I've replaced quite a lot of handbrake levers. Never a nice job, working both inside and under a car makes it difficult to keep the inside clean. I've known a few regular customers who always ground the teeth, needing a new handbrake at every second MOT.

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Anecdotally I have worked also in the motor trade for quite a few years and never saw it, I’ve also abused the ratchets on my own car for year, 70,000 miles on my punto 100,000 miles on fords and Saab’s and never once had a problem with any of them.

Just using this forum as a reference, how many posts are there about failed ratchets.....? (There will obviously be the odd one here and there as the cars get older ) Versus the thousands of other posts on her for all manour or various problems.

Needing a new ratchet every 2 years for the MOT Is not really inkeeping with even the worst ratchets abuser