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Old 23-09-2015   #1
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Volkswagen emissions scandal

You don't need me to explain as its all splashed over the news but what about other car manufactures - possibly even fiat. With today's very stringent emission controls I wonder if other car companies have been fiddling the software to get their cars to pass emission tests, I mean there has been some pretty strong clams these days over the amount of gasses that spew out of our exhausts. This could be a real shake up in the motor world
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Old 23-09-2015   #2
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Re: Volkswagen emissions scandal

Gadge, you beat me to starting a thread on this subject by about a minute.

For VW to do this is almost beyond belief; this scandal will shake the industry to the core. If one manufacturer cheats the system to gain a competitive advantage, it makes it impossible for the rest to compete honestly on a level playing field.

I predict the fallout from this will be massive. If one of europe's major manufacturers can't design a diesel car that meets modern emissions standards at the same time as delivering competitive economy, performance and reliability, then I'd say this is the beginning of the end for diesel passenger cars.

IMO VAG will find it difficult to sell anything to the North American market for decades; this could even put them out of business globally, period.

With supposedly 11m cars affected, are all the owners going to willingly return them for an update which any reasonable person knows will have a negative impact on the car's performance & economy?
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Old 23-09-2015   #3
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Re: Volkswagen emissions scandal

I bet its just the tip of the iceberg bet its found many have rigged their cars for both us and eu testing...
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Old 23-09-2015   #4
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Volkswagen emissions scandal

People are getting seriously confused by the facts coming out of this.

1. This is specifically a problem with the California emissions standards which are 4 times more stringent than even our euro 6 standards.

2. It effects only Diesel engines.

3. It only effects the type EA189 2.0 litre tdi engine.

4. The details of the hack suggests that in normal use the system turns off the ad blue system which removes NOx abd NO2 from the exhaust gasses, this ad blue system is not fitted to most of the eu cars.

5. VW have stated that the euro 6 emission standards have not been compromised.

6. Yes it may have some effect on sales but not significantly so and the real hit on the share price is due to the billions being put aside to pay to repair affected cars.

7. I won't be at all surprised if other manufactures that use these ad blue systems have done the same Mercedes and BMW are likely in this respect but that waits to be seen.

8. Fiat and other manufactures who make smaller cars are unlikely to be involved as it's much easier to get smaller cars to pass these tests.

To put this in perspective the fiat 500e was designed specifically for the California market and California has a number of specific electric only cars you can't easily buy else where, purely because of how strict emissions standards are.

Diesel cars comprise of about half of new car sales in the US so it's likely that if others have been cheating then it's likely to be GM who make and sell the Vauxhall insignia as a Chevrolet Cruze which is a very popular diesel in North America
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Old 23-09-2015   #5
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Re: Volkswagen emissions scandal

Quote Originally Posted by AndyRKett View Post
People are getting seriously confused by the facts coming out of this.

1. This is specifically a problem with the California emissions standards which are 4 times more stringent than even our euro 6 standards.

2. It effects only Diesel engines.

3. It only effects the type EA189 2.0 litre tdi engine.

4. The details of the hack suggests that in normal use the system turns off the ad blue system which removes NOx abd NO2 from the exhaust gasses, this ad blue system is not fitted to most of the eu cars.

5. VW have stated that the euro 6 emission standards have not been compromised.

6. Yes it may have some effect on sales but not significantly so and the real hit on the share price is due to the billions being put aside to pay to repair affected cars.

7. I won't be at all surprised if other manufactures that use these ad blue systems have done the same Mercedes and BMW are likely in this respect but that waits to be seen.

8. Fiat and other manufactures who make smaller cars are unlikely to be involved as it's much easier to get smaller cars to pass these tests.

To put this in perspective the fiat 500e was designed specifically for the California market and California has a number of specific electric only cars you can't easily buy else where, purely because of how strict emissions standards are.

Diesel cars comprise of about half of new car sales in the US so it's likely that if others have been cheating then it's likely to be GM who make and sell the Vauxhall insignia as a Chevrolet Cruze which is a very popular diesel in North America
I must admit, I am genuinely surprised that diesels are so popular in America.
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Old 23-09-2015   #6
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Re: Volkswagen emissions scandal

Quote Originally Posted by AndyRKett View Post
People are getting seriously confused by the facts coming out of this.

1. This is specifically a problem with the California emissions standards which are 4 times more stringent than even our euro 6 standards.

2. It effects only Diesel engines.

3. It only effects the type EA189 2.0 litre tdi engine.

4. The details of the hack suggests that in normal use the system turns off the ad blue system which removes NOx abd NO2 from the exhaust gasses, this ad blue system is not fitted to most of the eu cars.

5. VW have stated that the euro 6 emission standards have not been compromised.

6. Yes it may have some effect on sales but not significantly so and the real hit on the share price is due to the billions being put aside to pay to repair affected cars.

7. I won't be at all surprised if other manufactures that use these ad blue systems have done the same Mercedes and BMW are likely in this respect but that waits to be seen.

8. Fiat and other manufactures who make smaller cars are unlikely to be involved as it's much easier to get smaller cars to pass these tests.

To put this in perspective the fiat 500e was designed specifically for the California market and California has a number of specific electric only cars you can't easily buy else where, purely because of how strict emissions standards are.

Diesel cars comprise of about half of new car sales in the US so it's likely that if others have been cheating then it's likely to be GM who make and sell the Vauxhall insignia as a Chevrolet Cruze which is a very popular diesel in North America
I think it's the shock factor that a well respected car manufacture can be so deceitful that people are getting excited. California has historically had tough emissions laws - if your into your classic cars then you'll know about the trouble Leyland had with the triumph fuel injection engine in the 70's not being able to meet them - it probably means that every car manufacturer will be scrutinsed from now on with further law suits if they've been naughty.

Personally I think VAG will bounce back eventually as this doesn't detract that they still make excellent cars (others will argue against this but I've always liked them) I'm just hoping VWs stupidity won't affect other smaller manufactures as now all aspects of car legislation like safety systems and other operator systems will now be under the microscope if a company like VW can stoop to fiddling tactics to get thier cars though tests.
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Old 23-09-2015   #7
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Re: Volkswagen emissions scandal

Quote Originally Posted by AndyRKett View Post
1. This is specifically a problem with the California emissions standards which are 4 times more stringent than even our euro 6 standards.
But the affected VW diesels allegedly emit NOx at "10 to 40 times above standards".
http://pdf.reuters.com/pdfnews/pdfne...c3_PRIMARY.jpg

Quote Originally Posted by AndyRKett View Post
2. It effects only Diesel engines.
True - it affects only diesel engines.

Quote Originally Posted by AndyRKett View Post
3. It only effects the type EA189 2.0 litre tdi engine.
But this still amounts to about 11 million cars, according to VW. [VW sold 10.1 million cars in 2014, to put this in perspective].

Quote Originally Posted by AndyRKett View Post
5. VW have stated that the euro 6 emission standards have not been compromised.
Let's see whether the public believe VW, or wait for an independent assessment.

Quote Originally Posted by AndyRKett View Post
6. Yes it may have some effect on sales but not significantly so and the real hit on the share price is due to the billions being put aside to pay to repair affected cars.
Assuming customers are content to have their car 'repaired', and returned with a much lower power output, rather than demanding their money back for the cars being mis-sold. Lawsuits galore.

Quote Originally Posted by AndyRKett View Post
7. I won't be at all surprised if other manufactures that use these ad blue systems have done the same Mercedes and BMW are likely in this respect but that waits to be seen.
Quite possibly - we wait with interest.

Quote Originally Posted by AndyRKett View Post
Diesel cars comprise of about half of new car sales in the US so it's likely that if others have been cheating then it's likely to be GM who make and sell the Vauxhall insignia as a Chevrolet Cruze which is a very popular diesel in North America
It's difficult to find exact figures, but, as far as I can tell, < 10% of new car sales in the US are diesel. There are references to 3% of new car sales, but this may be 3% of cars, not new cars. Another article predicted breaking through 10% in 2020, which suggests < 10% at present.
Again, it's difficult to find up-to-date figures for Chevy Cruze sales, but in July-December 2013 2,979 were sold in the US and in January-June 2014 2,995 were sold - about 2% of all Cruze sales.
http://www.insidercarnews.com/chevro...les-stall-out/

Remind me again, what make is your new car Andy ?
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Old 24-09-2015   #8
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Re: Volkswagen emissions scandal

There was me thinking they'd confirmed up to 11 million cars world wide could have been sold the with the emissions defeat software in place. Which would suggest this is far beyond California, sure there will be various investigations in various markets. All would find the cars incapable of reproduction of the laboratory figures on the road...as well there isn't a car on the road produced in the last 10 years that will get the claimed figures day in day out and then we'll see what happens from there.
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Old 24-09-2015   #9
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Re: Volkswagen emissions scandal

Quote Originally Posted by chr1s View Post
But the affected VW diesels allegedly emit NOx at "10 to 40 times above standards".





True - it affects only diesel engines.





But this still amounts to about 11 million cars, according to VW. [VW sold 10.1 million cars in 2014, to put this in perspective].





Let's see whether the public believe VW, or wait for an independent assessment.





Assuming customers are content to have their car 'repaired', and returned with a much lower power output, rather than demanding their money back for the cars being mis-sold. Lawsuits galore.





Quite possibly - we wait with interest.





It's difficult to find exact figures, but, as far as I can tell, < 10% of new car sales in the US are diesel. There are references to 3% of new car sales, but this may be 3% of cars, not new cars. Another article predicted breaking through 10% in 2020, which suggests < 10% at present.

Again, it's difficult to find up-to-date figures for Chevy Cruze sales, but in July-December 2013 2,979 were sold in the US and in January-June 2014 2,995 were sold - about 2% of all Cruze sales.

http://www.insidercarnews.com/chevro...les-stall-out/



Remind me again, what make is your new car Andy ?

Without multi quoting you as I really can't be bothered.

There are well know discrepancies between rolling road and real world figures, that's been known for a long time and applies to all manufacturers.

11million cars are fitted with the engine and engine management that is thought to be the problem however not all 11 million have the same set ups such as ad blue and alike and only 500,000 of them are in the California area.

The question of power output and repairs is people's assumption at the moment. They make a 110hp 2.0 diesel and they make a 180hp 2.0 diesel largely the same both pass normal emissions testing so it's basically all software and to presume their will be any difference in power outputs or fuel economy at this stage although fair is purely speculation.

My new car is potentially one of those with the software installed however it does not have an ad blue system and VW have said that this does not change anything with regards to euro 6. But if it does transpire there are any problems then I am sure I will be compensated accordingly from the pot of billions vw have set aside.

What we have as usual is a story blown out of all proportion by people who don't understand the issue and a media looking to worsen the situation and inflate the story every day. There are no other known facts about the case, but speculation is being treated as fact.

On the flip side you have to consider the wider implications VW is a big company with a lot of money behind it, but smaller companies like fiat might not have the funds or the ability to cope with such a huge scandal, and now everyone is on the look out any piece of software that might somehow influence the outcome of an emissions test. It is all going to be under the microscope.
If VW can't fix the problem without losses in power output or fuel economy then it's just as right to assume that all manufactures are doing a similar thing, I don't see that a company founded out of the nazi party is going to have too much problem rebuilding its reputation, but I couldn't see a company like fiat faring so well.
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Old 24-09-2015   #10
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Re: Volkswagen emissions scandal

While it is currently only in the US, the question is would a company that will go to extreme lengths to cheat emissions testing have any scruples in employing the same ethics elsewhere? Maybe they are like Lance Armstrong, if you're going to cheat and risk getting caught don't do it half arsed, play to win.

This isn't the same as cars that don't meet published figures (definitely an industry wide problem) this is cars engineered only to produce the published figures under test conditions.

This isn't a balls up like GMs ignition coils killing people, this is working perfectly as intended. Dieter in the emissions control department didn't suddenly go rogue and sneakily build 400k plus cars. It'll have been through design groups, testing, re-designs, board approvals. I.e. they knew what they were building, they knew what it was for, the only thing they are sorry about is that they got caught.

The smaller manufacturers may well escape this because how many of them could afford to specifically design a system and fit it to all cars on the off chance one of them may be tested?

It has the possibility to be like Europes Chevrolet Corvair, Germany couldn't afford to let VW die but if this is what they do left to their own devices...then perhaps they shouldn't be. This may be why the others are making loud noises as well...VW could have broken the game for everyone by going too far.
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Old 24-09-2015   #11
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Re: Volkswagen emissions scandal

has been bookmark, this seems like a very interesting thread
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Old 24-09-2015   #12
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Re: Volkswagen emissions scandal

Storm clouds gathering in Europe...

Big announcement tomorrow as to just how big a s### storm it will be.
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Old 24-09-2015   #13
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Re: Volkswagen emissions scandal

Well, I'm getting in quick..... going to look at a 2L TDI Golf tomorrow
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Old 24-09-2015   #14
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Re: Volkswagen emissions scandal

Quote Originally Posted by FatherJack View Post
Well, I'm getting in quick..... going to look at a 2L TDI Golf tomorrow
I'd give it a week you never know might pick it up for a song..
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Old 24-09-2015   #15
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Re: Volkswagen emissions scandal

Quote Originally Posted by StevenRB45 View Post
I'd give it a week you never know might pick it up for a song..
Thats what I'm hoping
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