Volkswagen emissions scandal

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Volkswagen emissions scandal

You've got 306 in your username, I'm sure you can tell a crappy, old cheap car when you see one (y)

As Peugeots go, the 306 was quite good. Did the job well, comfortable, good interior space and reliable if looked after. Interior was a lot of hard plastic, that the press slate as poor quality, but it will all still be just as good on all the scrapped ones. Nothing exciting about one though.

Had a full day in an Up! a couple of years ago. With two quite tall blokes. A bit cosy, but came away impressed. A nice car. Not exciting, no emotion, but nice.

I always treat press reports with scepticism, they'll often praise stuff that doesn't live up to it, and criticise stuff that turns out to be good. They also contradict themselves.

The Fiesta I'm using as a learner car is competent, easy to drive, but not easy to drive well. The suspension control is poor, flopping and bouncing on all bumps. Yet, the press have always praised its handling. Presumably because they've never driven an ordinary one, only the sporty models, with stiffer suspension. But in the reviews of the new model, they praise Ford for sorting the bouncy suspension that plagued the previous model. So they did know, just didn't mention it. Advertising revenues anyone?
 
As Peugeots go, the 306 was quite good. Did the job well, comfortable, good interior space and reliable if looked after. Interior was a lot of hard plastic, that the press slate as poor quality, but it will all still be just as good on all the scrapped ones. Nothing exciting about one though.



Had a full day in an Up! a couple of years ago. With two quite tall blokes. A bit cosy, but came away impressed. A nice car. Not exciting, no emotion, but nice.



I always treat press reports with scepticism, they'll often praise stuff that doesn't live up to it, and criticise stuff that turns out to be good. They also contradict themselves.



The Fiesta I'm using as a learner car is competent, easy to drive, but not easy to drive well. The suspension control is poor, flopping and bouncing on all bumps. Yet, the press have always praised its handling. Presumably because they've never driven an ordinary one, only the sporty models, with stiffer suspension. But in the reviews of the new model, they praise Ford for sorting the bouncy suspension that plagued the previous model. So they did know, just didn't mention it. Advertising revenues anyone?



I definitely think there’s a lot of bribery in those articles.. as opposed to actual testing.

I will give it to the Germans, I saw one review of a Panda 169 presumably from quite a while back.. and they had put a LOT of miles on it , spent months driving it and had the full thing stripped down to its components to evaluate how well it coped. That’s extreme commitment to their review. And if they reported ‘poor reliability’ I’d hesitate to argue with them because they could show you the mechanicals to back it up. Wish we had that, or at least half of that, in the UK motoring press.
 
Problem is with motoring magazines a lot of have links to manufacturers or have an high income coming in from certain companies.

Take Dennis publishing who publish autoexpress and Evo. Autoexpress magazine is clearly VAG heavily advertised as the most expensive pages contain a VAG advert the first double page, third page and back page.

Whatcar and Autocar are haymarket publishing who in turn own haymarket network, one of the main clients is VAG

http://www.haymarketnetwork.com/clients/volkswagen

It’s so difficult to get an unbiased view, VAG are always heavily promoted by these magazines.

Oh and in reference to earlier posts... I own my first automatic a dual clutch and I love it.. wouldn’t go back.....
 
You make some good points, the haymarket connection really is rather dodgy tbh.

IMHO EVO is generally fairly unbiased. They love good cars and that always shows through tbh. The fact that they will rave about cars like the Panda 100hp says that they just love good cars.

Auto express is a pile of crap tbh.

I’m not a big VAG fan, but their cars are actually really rather decent these days (dieselgate tomfoolery aside) and sadly Fiat for example has just say around doing sweet FA.

In the time Fiat had one Bravo model, VW had 3 generations of Golf.
In the time Fiat has had one Punto (with a couple of facelifts) VW has had 3 Polos.

If that’s the way Fiat want to do business then they may as well not bother. They could have double the marketing budget of VAG and they’d still sell less cars.
 
Recently our Audi A3 went in for a service and I was given an A3 1.6tdi Sport as a courtesy car. (The Audi isn’t mine it’s the other half’s) I didn’t like the new A3 - it wasn’t bad nor was it great. The engine was very noisy and rattled, was t very economical and it was okay inside not as good as made out in reviews. It also had rattles although it was new, and it had crummy torsion beam rear suspension. I wasn’t impressed
 
Egr is one of the causes of carbon build up but it's not the only reason why certain (predominantly BMW and VW although also PSA cars that share engines) DI cars suffer with issues.

On a port injected car although EGR gases do travel through the inlet valves they pass through along with air and petrol. Petrol being a solvent cleans the valves on the way through. On a DI car the fuel doesn't touch the inlet valves so any crap stays there. The options are cleaning up the inlet gases before they hit the valves, fitting the additional injectors to rinse the valves with fuel occasionally (as previously mentioned Toyota does this) or do nothing and let your customers pay to have their valves cleaned every 2-4 years depending on usage.
Very interesting subject this carbon build up on direct injection engines. There was an in depth study into this a few years ago which came up with some slightly surprising results which I found to be of great interest as I own a 3 Cylinder direct injected VAG petrol engined vehicle. I found the article on the Oilem site, headed TFSI Direct Injection Carbon build up problems - or something like that.

Two years ago, after about 20 years of driving diesels, I decided that with the complexity and difficulty in repairing modern diesels - anyone tried to get one of these "tape worm like" injectors out? - coupled to the gathering ground swell against them that I would return to petrol power. Because I have VCDS and my good friend's daughter is married to the owner of our local Audi independent garage, it had to be a VAG product. After 6 months of consideration and indecision I eventually decided on a 3cyl turbo Ibiza Ecomotive ST. Two years down the line I've spent many hours crawling all over her and I'm glad to say, that whilst complex, she looks no more difficult to maintain than my old '99 Cordoba 1.9 tdi estate was - fault finding? probably another matter! Of course she's being serviced at the local main dealer at present - I didn't want any problems if a warranty claim ever became necessary! A couple of things do concern me slightly though. The high pressure side of the fuel system operates at astronomically (diesel like) high pressure. Yet, unlike diesel, the fuel has no inherent lubricating qualities. I'm also aware that carbon build up on the back of the inlet valves may become a problem (hopefully, because this engine does not use exhaust gas recirculation and has forced induction, the build up will be slower than many others).

I have to say that, with many years working on cars and other (horticultural) engines and machines I am quite sceptical about the efficacy of fuel and oil additives in general. But I'm concerned about lubrication to the plunger type HP fuel pump and anything which can contribute to slowing down the build up of carbon in the inlets would be good. So I've decided to give Archoil AR 6900-P MAX a go. Mostly to help with pump life but if it slows up carbon build up that's all to the good. Who knows if I'm just wasting my money? She's just going into her third year of life now and, as long as nothing dramatic happens, I'm intending to remove the inlet manifold (quite a big job as it's in unit with the water cooled heat exchanger but an antifreeze change will be well due by then anyway) when she's approaching her 6th birthday. I'll do an update for you at that time and let you know what the valves looked like. I'll do some pictures too if I can find out how to post them! She's been christened TWINK by my wife, who thinks she looks far to cute to be male, the car that is, just in case anyone is interested? - Wife's wearing well too!

Trying to decide what to do with Tony, the Cordoba. Wife thought, with the "rough" old diesel engine, that he was definitely male! At 18 years old he's still basically serviceable but a bit "creaky" like me. A number of things, couple of brake pipes, one looks really nasty to get at, strut top mounts, etc are going to be needed which would all be doabley affordable but his turbo wastegate actuator (it's the old diaphragm type) has decided to retire from active duty with a rupture. This means no wastegate actuation and immediate Limp Home on full throttle above about 3000 rpm. Oh, and impressive amounts of black smoke! Think WW2 destroyer smokescreen! Perfectly fine when driven at moderate throttle though. Can't find anywhere doing just the actuator on it's own as it's so old? And, oh dear, the road tax! And the current persecution of diesel. Trouble is he's so easy to look after. No DPF, No ABS, Drum rear brakes - I hate rear discs (subject for another thread?) Old, rotary type, injection pump, etc etc. But the clear coat is lifting in a lot of places so he looks as if he's got "something nasty", but I love him!

Making good progress with the boy's Punto though - but that's another story in another thread!
 
Carbon build up is an issue with some VAG TSI engines - out 2.0tsi A3 cab was running lumpy because of it, the cylinder head to be removed and cleaned out because of it. Two years later it affected the manifold also and that had to be cleaned out as well the car is at 67k miles.

I ran a MK3 Focus 2.0tdci up to 63k and had no issues with the EGR or DPF it was a faultless car.
 
Carbon build up can be managed, PSA had terrible issues with it's first DI engines.

We've now got a turbo DI 3 cylinder psa petrol but they learned from generation one. It uses the VVT to delay the closing of the inlet valves until after the 1st (of 3) injector pulses has fired. This washes the back of the valve with fuel like the older in direct systems did. Carbon build up is pretty much unheard of in the newer PSA petrols so it seems to work.

You would hope other manufacturers learned from their earlier mistakes unless they really are just warranty period + 10%.
 
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Carbon build up can be managed, PSA had terrible issues with it's first DI engines.

We've now got a turbo DI 3 cylinder psa petrol but they learned from generation one. It uses the VVT to delay the closing of the inlet valves until after the 1st (of 3) injector pulses has fired. This washes the back of the valve with fuel like the older in direct systems did. Carbon build up is pretty much unheard of in the newer PSA petrols so it seems to work.

You would hope other manufacturers learned from their earlier mistakes unless they really are just warranty period + 10%.
Ooooh! Now that really is interesting. My engine has VVT wonder if it does this? Even if it doesn't at this time I would think it could be incorporated under a firmware update? The Archoil claim is that some of the carbon cleaning ability survives the combustion process which keeps downstream components, turbo, cat, etc clean but a small amount of combusted gasses "backflush" into the inlet port during overlap. They don't claim this has a strong cleaning action but do say it should keep carbon contamination of the inlet to a minimum. Time will tell, we shall see in 3 years time. Just another exciting thing to look forward too!!

I got quite interested in Honda a couple of years ago when I nearly bought a Civic. The i VTEC system holds the inlet valves open after BDC at lower revs to reduce pumping losses and improve fuel economy. Not quite the same thing and not VVT. Anyway it's a port injected design so carbon build up is not a problem, but very interesting non the less.
 
You make some good points, the haymarket connection really is rather dodgy tbh.



IMHO EVO is generally fairly unbiased. They love good cars and that always shows through tbh. The fact that they will rave about cars like the Panda 100hp says that they just love good cars.



Auto express is a pile of crap tbh.



I’m not a big VAG fan, but their cars are actually really rather decent these days (dieselgate tomfoolery aside) and sadly Fiat for example has just say around doing sweet FA.



In the time Fiat had one Bravo model, VW had 3 generations of Golf.

In the time Fiat has had one Punto (with a couple of facelifts) VW has had 3 Polos.



If that’s the way Fiat want to do business then they may as well not bother. They could have double the marketing budget of VAG and they’d still sell less cars.



Definitely agree here. As someone who loves Fiat, it’s actually quite frustrating at how little effort they seem to make in trying to keep up or make something top-of-the-line. Or maybe there’s just enough people like me that are happy with a car even if it doesn’t have ‘great professional reviews’ or magazine awards behind it.
 
Definitely agree here. As someone who loves Fiat, it’s actually quite frustrating at how little effort they seem to make in trying to keep up or make something top-of-the-line. Or maybe there’s just enough people like me that are happy with a car even if it doesn’t have ‘great professional reviews’ or magazine awards behind it.

Generally I don’t believe fiat make ‘bad’ cars. The panda, 500 mk2 punto, even the likes of the croma were well put together.
Their biggest down fall is making a car then not putting their money where their mouth is.

While other companies push their cars all the time, Fiat will launch a new model, advertise it for a few weeks, then it seems like they stand back and give up and if people don’t come and buy it, they’re not bothered.

Meanwhile the likes of VAG will put an Audi in every movie free of charge to the movie company, BMW put James Bond in a Z3 and Z8.

Fiat’s total tv credits appear to be a over weight middle manager staring Peter Kay.

It’s these sorts of things that which make the difference.
 
I’m not a big VAG fan, but their cars are actually really rather decent these days (dieselgate tomfoolery aside) and sadly Fiat for example has just say around doing sweet FA.

In the time Fiat had one Bravo model, VW had 3 generations of Golf.
In the time Fiat has had one Punto (with a couple of facelifts) VW has had 3 Polos.

If that’s the way Fiat want to do business then they may as well not bother. They could have double the marketing budget of VAG and they’d still sell less cars.

I fully expect to get a lot of abuse for this, but I must admit, I don't get why some cars have such short production lives. For me personally, if it ain't broke, don't fix it yet. Me and my parents own relatively old cars, and I really don't see any useful improvement with the latest models.
 
I fully expect to get a lot of abuse for this, but I must admit, I don't get why some cars have such short production lives. For me personally, if it ain't broke, don't fix it yet. Me and my parents own relatively old cars, and I really don't see any useful improvement with the latest models.

Because there are different people in the world to you and your parents.

Most people these days buying a new car do so on a PCP deal for 3-4 years.

At the end of 3-4 years the option is give the car back, buy another new car for the same money as they are already paying or pay off the PCP balloon payment which usually means refinancing the car and paying the same amount for 4 year old car as they would for a new car.

Unsurprisingly most opt to buy a new car for the same money. This is where Fiat fall down, you see brand loyalty is everything with cars and for many once hooked on a brand they will stick with what they know. If you get to the end of your 3 year deal, and the option is to pay off the rest of the finance deal for another 3 years, at the end of which you’ll have a nearly worthless 6-8 year old car... or buy a brand new car for the exact same monthly payment, and you toddle along to the dealer to look for a “new car” but the “new car” is the exact same car you already have, then most will start looking else where, when people want a new car they want something new, something different with new features a new look, if you’re paying all that money out for a new car you want something new.

For year fiat have been neglecting those customers, so someone loyal to owning a 500 could well be on their 3rd or 4th essentially identical car now, the punto has gone largely unchanged since 2005 other than a few cons metric changes so if you had a punto every 3years since 2005 you’d be on your 5th one this year in the mean time there have 4 models of golf in that same period of time.

They don’t do it for the sake of change, they do it because it sells cars.
If there is no reason to update people will carry on and not buy new cars, to a car manufacturer, people not buying new cars is not exactly good business sense.

It’s the same model that phone companies use to sell new phones, bring a new model out each year, tweet it just enough to be better than the previous model and sell all the virtues and extras of the new model and people will ditch their old phone/car to have the newest models.

Now you might not be one of these people, you might not see any sense in such a wasteful society or think these people are idiots, however if people weren’t buying a million new cars every year then they wouldn’t be selling their old cars, there fore older cars would become hugely expensive and you’d be driving something from the 80s welded together 500times just to keep it going because of its relative value. The way things are done currently, it gets rid of older, unsafe, broken, polluting cars every few years, and society keeps moving forward rather than living in the past.
 
That’s fine but then you see the mess that my wife’s 2015 mini made of a 2005 zafira, you’ll understand how much technology and safety has moved on. 10 years ago she’d have been luck to survive a 50mph crash into the side of a much larger car, from this accident in a relatively small car, she was battered and bruised but thankfully no broken bones and walked away.

There is a lot to be said for a newer car compared to an older car.

It very much depends what price you put on your own health and safety.

Many other people are not just transporting them self and are happy to pay the premium to keep them self and their family safe and comfortable.
 
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I completely agree with wanting a strong car, but I'd imagine my Grande or my parents 2009 Clio would've done a good job of protecting us in a similar impact as well: for me personally, car design reached its peak in around the mid 00s.
 
I completely agree with wanting a strong car, but I'd imagine my Grande or my parents 2009 Clio would've done a good job of protecting us in a similar impact as well:

The mini is a 4 Star car but tested under new much higher standards than older cars, older cars that were 5 star would not fare anywhere near as well.

The 2005 zafira was a 5 Star car, that was annihilated in the accident, if there had been people in the passenger side of the car there would have been some very serious injuries, thankfully the driver was on his own.

So no I don’t believe for a second that she would have walked away if she had been in an older car, and to be honest I’m amazed she walked away from the mini, which IMO is testimont to the safety of new cars. They are now on the 3rd generation of the mini, and It would be foolish to think that the safety levels wouldn’t have improved with each new model.

As I said it comes down to what value you put on safety, if you think that your car is ‘good enough’ well that’s very much your decision to make, but every so often someone crashes an old car into a new car, usually fifth gear, and as yet I have never seen the old car do well in this sort of test, in fact it’s usually catastrophic for the older car driver.
 
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Mine didn’t do to badly in a 30ish mph impact. I walked away from that with no injuries nor did the airbags activate
 
I fully expect to get a lot of abuse for this, but I must admit, I don't get why some cars have such short production lives. For me personally, if it ain't broke, don't fix it yet. Me and my parents own relatively old cars, and I really don't see any useful improvement with the latest models.



A lot of useful improvements exist in newer models in the areas of NVH, refinement, quality, safety and performance amongst a few.

Whilst the 1.4 Elegenza is a perfectly useable vehicle it wasn’t that competitive when it was launched. Certainly now in comparison it’s very outdated, especially so in terms of performance. I remember thinking when I had one as a courtesy car it was almost dangerously slow.

However, if someone has little interest in driver involvement, quality, refinement it’s perfectly adequate.
 
And as usual you’re missing the point. Crash strength is somewhat of an arms race. Cars are getting more and more high strength steel and in some cases cars are even getting carbon fibre in places like B pillars.

So that Grande which might have been just find in 2005 will have a hole punched through it by a much stronger car in 2017.

A car from 10 years ago will be massively dated inside compared to a newer car. Infotainment is massively important nowadays, if you came into work with me you’d be massively surprised at the fact by how many people are working on infotainment. I’d say that for every 5 people in the electrical engineering department, there is one person working on the infotainment system. The other 80% of people are working on Powertrain (engine and gearbox), Safety (airbags and so on), driver assistance (automatic cruise control, mono camera, night vision, rear and front view cameras, parking distance control, ESP, braking), switchgear, body electronics (body control modules, door/window ecus, spoiler, HVAC), harness and clipping, lighting and testing.

So that’s 20% of people devoted to the screen in the dash, the kombi (instrument cluster to normal people) and the speaker’s.

Fiat’s efforts with infotainment at the moment are pretty laughable in comparison to what the competition has been doing for years now.
 
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