StevenRB45 said:

Erm this is just plain incorrect.

Here it is in said list, slightly above an Audi A3..although it is one point below the Golf.

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Skim reading.. it's the enemy of us all.

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Yep, thanks for that, I scanned up and down for quite a while and couldn’t see it, it’s quite a way down that list.

A lot of these things if looked at with a statistical mind are nonsense anyway, there are only 4 points between the top and bottom of that list.

What does 4 points difference mean in the real world, how can you translate that to what it means to own those cars. I’m sure there are other surveys that could be used to show a different story.

If someone wants to tow a horse box with a couple of horses in it, a panda isn’t going to do the job no matter how many points it has. Equally a golf is no good if you live on a farm at the end of a 3 mile dirt track.

In this instance If the only argument for not liking a car is “it’s boring” then you’d better drive something a damn sight more interesting than a panda.

Perhaps the takeaway in the lack of spread is that the vast majority of cars are just as reliable as each other in most circumstances and that the ones that break down are the outliers.

Then again the DS3 won this one year and I'd have happily poured petrol over that and set light to it..

The trouble with a lot of these things is that they're very subjective.

I remember the Mk1 Skoda Octavia doing very well in the JD Power Driver Survey. Remember, this was just a MkIV Golf in different clothes.

It was one of the top 2 or 3 performing cars. The Golf was nowhere.

It all came down to perception - people expected a Skoda to be cheap, nasty and break down lots. When it transpired they were pretty much as good as the Golf they were based upon, people gave them really strong results.

There's also the opposite effect, Audi always gets a bashing in these. I cannot remember when they weren't propping up the bottom half of the table in these surveys.

Logically they have all the same mechanicals...and probably ecus, wiring, suspension, brakes e.t.c. or at least a mild variation on the theme.

Yet what makes them less reliable than any other VW group product? Short answer probably nothing, they are exactly as reliable as everything else on the same under pinnings, why wouldn't they be literally?

But if you market heavily on Germanic perfection then deliver a car that is at best average in reliability terms and sell it via dealers that charge a lot then if it goes wrong your owners are going to crucify you for it at survey time.

I also note with interest neither the Focus or the Fiesta are anywhere to be seen..mustn't sell enough of them apparently

You're spot on there.

The brand that really breaks the mould is Lexus. A premium brand, yet they still attain amazing scores.

But I can kind of see why - our camper van is essentially a Lexus (but, as it's a JDM model, never got Lexus badges) and, aside from a couple of niggles with things like self-return on ash-tray lids, it still feels very solid and 'new' even though it's 16 years and 90k miles old.

As for Ford... just don't know where their place is anymore - I've had Hyundai and Kia hire cars which are significantly better value vs. Ford equivalents.

Aside from the hard plastics in the Kona I rented in Germany, I thought it was an excellent car. It doesn't seem to have an equivalent UK specification - but it would have been around £24k to buy - not bad for an AWD 180bhp DCT crossover.

StevenRB45 said:

There's also the opposite effect, Audi always gets a bashing in these. I cannot remember when they weren't propping up the bottom half of the table in these surveys.

Logically they have all the same mechanicals...and probably ecus, wiring, suspension, brakes e.t.c. or at least a mild variation on the theme.

Yet what makes them less reliable than any other VW group product? Short answer probably nothing, they are exactly as reliable as everything else on the same under pinnings, why wouldn't they be literally?

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There is actually a very good reason for this, anything that is newly developed and top end technology tends to get tested on the top end cars like Audi, before filtering down to other marquees the engines will get additional refinement for example a balance shaft in the engine that doesn’t exist on other vag group cars. Essentially Audi’s are test mules for technology because people who want these cars want the most up to date stuff, also take a look at the inside of a new Audi versus the VW, Skoda and seat, where as the VW/Skoda/seat will share parts, the new Audi’s have their own interior bits and bobs which means they don’t tend to be do well tried and tested.

Actually, the biggest selling Audis probably don't share a lot with VW these days anyway.

The company car staples - A4 and A6 are bespoke Audi platforms. As are the bigger cars.

Only the A1, A3, Q2 and Q3 are platform shared. The A3 actually lags behind the equivalent Golf, too - and I think Seat have debuted the Polo size platform before any others in the group.

Of course, you do get differences even on platform shared cars - it's not unknown for posh models to get multi-link rears vs torsion bars on the cheaper cars. But this can happen within a range, too. (The aforementioned Hyundai Kona only gets multi-link on AWD versions, for example).

AndyRKett said:

There is actually a very good reason for this, anything that is newly developed and top end technology tends to get tested on the top end cars like Audi, before filtering down to other marquees the engines will get additional refinement for example a balance shaft in the engine that doesn’t exist on other vag group cars. Essentially Audi’s are test mules for technology because people who want these cars want the most up to date stuff, also take a look at the inside of a new Audi versus the VW, Skoda and seat, where as the VW/Skoda/seat will share parts, the new Audi’s have their own interior bits and bobs which means they don’t tend to be do well tried and tested.

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That would make sense if the cars got better with time.

The current A3 is pensionable in car terms so they have had plenty of time to apply lessons learned in the product lifecycle as most manufacturers do. Yet they still are apparently not as reliable as any of the cars that share the same, floor pan, engines, steering, and are now available with much of the same tech.

AndyRKett said:

Lmao, the best defence you have is that your panda is better because it always went wrong and needed work doing therefore you learned something in fixing it.... worst defence of anything ever.



Interestingly despite being very reliable in this survey, it didn’t feature at all in the best cars to own list, which the mk7 golf made, the fiat 500 made that list too but not the panda.

However kudos for actually having owned a golf and having some experience, I’m gonna guess that it wasn’t a brand new golf given that it was shedding the contents of its engine.
Any old and mistreated car has the potential to behave like this.

It’s worth noting that the only reason reliability was brought into question is that SB1500’s panda is currently with the Fiat dealer having the engine and gearbox rebuilt because of problem seals.

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I’m not making the point that the Panda is by”better” than anything. The main point being, I like Fiat Panda’s and no matter how unreliable or whatever you like to say they are, I still like them. I can’t see that changing. You can’t argue subjective opinions, but by all means keep trying.

My second point being, I find German cars incredibly boring. It’s a popular criticism of them, even at the high end. Deal with it

Seems like anytime I mention either you keep getting triggered. It’s very entertaining. It’s going to keep happening unless you learn to let it go. A lot of other people on here also own German cars and don’t take it so badly... I’m sure if you PM some they’ll be happy to give some tips. Unfortunately, I’ll be too busy fixing my Panda and making snarky comments about how ugly and boring Golf’s are* (*TO ME)

SB1500 said:

Unfortunately, I’ll be too busy fixing my Panda and making snarky comments about how ugly and boring Golf’s are* (*TO ME)

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The only thing that’s boring is you, note how the grown ups have moved on and are having a proper conversation now. I say this as your comment above shows what a silly little boy you are happy in your little bubble with no experience of the world and yet think you’re clever and funny... sadly not on any count.

Now you need to learn to let it go, people have better cars than you and plenty of them laugh at you, if I remember correctly even your own family wanted you to get a better car. But jealously will keep eating you away unless you learn to live with that.

I look forward to your “must have the last word” reply.

StevenRB45 said:

That would make sense if the cars got better with time.

The current A3 is pensionable in car terms so they have had plenty of time to apply lessons learned in the product lifecycle as most manufacturers do. Yet they still are apparently not as reliable as any of the cars that share the same, floor pan, engines, steering, and are now available with much of the same tech.

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The current A3 was facelifted in 2017 with significant updates inside and out, it also introduced technology that had until that point been exclusive to the higher end cars like the A8 so obviously in doing so they introduced a whole host of new potential failure points.

I’d forgotten that a lot of audis share more in common with bentleys and Lamborghinis than vw and skoda these days in terms of platforms used.

AndyRKett said:

The only thing that’s boring is you, note how the grown ups have moved on and are having a proper conversation now. I say this as your comment above shows what a silly little boy you are happy in your little bubble with no experience of the world and yet think you’re clever and funny... sadly not on any count.



Now you need to learn to let it go, people have better cars than you and plenty of them laugh at you, if I remember correctly even your own family wanted you to get a better car. But jealously will keep eating you away unless you learn to live with that.



I look forward to your “must have the last word” reply.

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Ah classic Andy, making it very personal and bitter sounding ;-)

Still love Fiat [emoji594]
Still bored by ‘grown up’ Golfs (even purple convertible ones) ?
Still not clever or funny though... boo hoo

Try to not get too triggered as I continue to post as I do, it makes you look like a “silly little boy” - like me [emoji122]

On a totally unrelated note..

Some days you are just S.O.L. last Thursday was one of those for me, parked up for 30 seconds to get some cash out walking back to the car heard a loud crunch. Lo and behold a transit van had put it's towbar through my grille.



He did stop, was apologetic has agreed to pay for it but finally got a chance to look at properly for 30 seconds today. I did check he'd hit nothing functional at the time but kinda left it at that.

Anyway popped it all back into shape today, I may just let the guy off and wish him a Merry Christmas. Yes the car is damaged but nothing you'd notice unless you're on your knees in front of it and having it off the road is more of a problem than a mildly cracked grille.



If it was new...I'd be foaming but it isn't, thankfully given if it was new it'd have adaptive cruise and collision avoidance sensors right here.

It's only a Mazda. I'd be apathetic about it if I had a recession white Mazda hatchback, too.

Schumi2001 said:

It's only a Mazda. I'd be apathetic about it if I had a recession white Mazda hatchback, too.

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I'll have you know its white pearl....however yes the apathy is real.

One of these days I'll get round to getting a new car..it's just hard to justify when it all it costs is fuel and maintenance.

The fact I'm absolutely apathetic about any of the modern replacements available doesn't help either. Changed jobs ages ago..was like "right I shall treat myself to a new car" "Oh...is that what's available maybe something else I like will come along"...that's about 18 months ago now.

At this rate I'll be swapping it for an electric car.

StevenRB45 said:

I'll have you know its white pearl....however yes the apathy is real.

One of these days I'll get round to getting a new car..it's just hard to justify when it all it costs is fuel and maintenance.

The fact I'm absolutely apathetic about any of the modern replacements available doesn't help either. Changed jobs ages ago..was like "right I shall treat myself to a new car" "Oh...is that what's available maybe something else I like will come along"...that's about 18 months ago now.

At this rate I'll be swapping it for an electric car.

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The whole reason for buying my Punto was to not care about it. It’s quite releasing if it gets dented scraped or knocked to shrug your shoulders and go ‘oh well’
I suspect the better build quality of the Mazda helped in this instance, I suspect the Punto would have fallen a part if a van backed into it, I changed a fog light bulb once and manage to break a tab of plastic off the lower front grill just by undoing a screw.

Driving back along the M4 from Chippenham to Swindon. Feeling a bit lonely in lane 1. Lanes 2 & 3 quite busy and gooing nowhere any faster.

Tell me about it.

I'm starting to look at my replacement company car.

Due to incredibly unfair company car tax rules, I can't replace with something similar - despite a 2.0TDI being the best power plant for my use (up to 5k miles / month - 99% of which is company use) - they're being taxed out of existence.

So I'm being forced down a size into something plug-in.

But... nothing out there on my list does anything for me. I have no enthusiasm for a BMW 330e, the 225xe is a Mini based MPV and VW are still months away from getting the Golf GTE estate to the market. Although that may not happen anyway as VW PHEV lease rates are crazy expensive.

I could go Lexus, but the UX SUV is a bit girlie. The IS is ancient and I can have an ES in any colour I want so long as it's black. None of these come with the essential Apple CarPlay.

I want another 520d or an A6 2.0TDI, but at £400 / month in tax alone it's just not happening.

A hybrid car seems to work best with a mixed use, as it is a mixed car. Their electric range is small, so longer journeys will be using mostly the ICE, potentially less economical due to carrying the weight of the electric motor and batteries. Does make the air quality in towns a little better I suppose.

It is difficult to tax a car differently for different usage. So if diesels were taxed less, we'd still have lots of people using them for low mileage commutes, where a hybrid or electric might be better.

Too many choices.

It's utterly ridiculous that we are forcing company car drivers into unsuitable cars - and, ironically, driving increased CO2 emissions by doing so!

We need to go back to the days of your BIK tax being driven by the proportion of miles you do on company business. I can go months without using my company car for personal mileage, yet still have to pay tax on it as a benefit.