Schumi2001 said:

The current design can be traced all the way back to the MkII (the Mk1 is the car that doesn't fit the development these days).

Click to expand...

Of course. Because the Mk1 was designed by one of the best car designers in automotive history. It couldn’t exactly go uphill from there now, could it? ;-)

Italian design and beauty will never be matched by the cold, harsh and obsessively done straight lines of German cars.. (in my opinion) [emoji594][emoji41]

But it’s okay for the Everyman. Or the people who “don’t care about their car, but want a decent one” - alas the popularity and common Golf we see today.

SB1500 said:

Of course. Because the Mk1 was designed by one of the best car designers in automotive history. It couldn’t exactly go uphill from there now, could it? ;-)

Italian design and beauty will never be matched by the cold, harsh and obsessively done straight lines of German cars.. (in my opinion) [emoji594][emoji41]

But it’s okay for the Everyman. Or the people who “don’t care about their car, but want a decent one” - alas the popularity and common Golf we see today.

Click to expand...

This is clearly designed to get a rise, don’t worry I’ll bite.

The problem with stupid comments like this, is that unless you know what you are talking about you just look like an idiot.

VW have used and employed Italian designers for years, my golf for example was designed by Walter de silver an Italian former head of design at alfa Romeo and ex fiat designer....

But Italians are not the be all and end all when it comes to car design, for example fiat got it terribly wrong with the Multipla a sales failure that they tried to rectify then shortly after gave up on. At least they gave the designer of that another go..... they let him design the current generation panda lmao

"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder" is a well used phrase. If we all liked the same designs, cars would be like household white goods, all much the same. Currently many will buy cars that may have poor reputations, but emotion rules. Ideally we want style with reliability. Thankfully we seem to be moving towars this, but slower than ideal.

Personally I think the Honda Civic seems to get uglier with every iteration. Underneath is a very good car, easy to drive, comfortable, etc., but all about style, inside and out. And a rear window for those drivers that never bother using mirrors.

Is it just me, or is the Toyota CHR the love child of a Juke and a Civic?

SB1500 said:

Of course. Because the Mk1 was designed by one of the best car designers in automotive history. It couldn’t exactly go uphill from there now, could it? ;-)

Italian design and beauty will never be matched by the cold, harsh and obsessively done straight lines of German cars.. (in my opinion) [emoji594][emoji41]

But it’s okay for the Everyman. Or the people who “don’t care about their car, but want a decent one” - alas the popularity and common Golf we see today.

Click to expand...

The only Golf with 'cold, harsh and obsessively done straight lines' is the Mk1... which is why it looks out of place in the development timeline.

A MkII and MkVII are very obviously connected.

Schumi2001 said:

The only Golf with 'cold, harsh and obsessively done straight lines' is the Mk1... which is why it looks out of place in the development timeline.



A MkII and MkVII are very obviously connected.

Click to expand...

Sorry mate, you’re probably not in the best of moods today. I’ll let it go ..

AndyRKett said:

This is clearly designed to get a rise, don’t worry I’ll bite.



The problem with stupid comments like this, is that unless you know what you are talking about you just look like an idiot.



VW have used and employed Italian designers for years, my golf for example was designed by Walter de silver an Italian former head of design at alfa Romeo and ex fiat designer....



But Italians are not the be all and end all when it comes to car design, for example fiat got it terribly wrong with the Multipla a sales failure that they tried to rectify then shortly after gave up on. At least they gave the designer of that another go..... they let him design the current generation panda lmao

Click to expand...

You don’t ever reply to any of the very on topic / productive posts I make across the forum, only where you can add a little snark.

Still, consider that many people do find the Golf boring and stale somewhat of a fact. Just like (most) people would rather take the bus than own my Panda. It doesn’t hurt to acknowledge other views ;-)

SB1500 said:

You don’t ever reply to any of the very on topic / productive posts I make across the forum, only where you can add a little snark.

Still, consider that many people do find the Golf boring and stale somewhat of a fact. Just like (most) people would rather take the bus than own my Panda. It doesn’t hurt to acknowledge other views ;-)

Click to expand...

Many people think Kim Kardashian is interesting, do you? I certainly don’t.... What’s you’re point here? 5 times as many golfs get made every year than Pandas so you could draw from that the Golf is 5 times more interesting, or 5 times as desirable? It’s one of the best selling cars in the world so in that respect it definitely doesn’t seem to be “stale”

I’ve not commented on productive posts that you’ve made as I’ve yet to see any. Usually you seemingly only come here to post about how much you dislike other things that you don’t have.


Now back on actual topic your comment about boring German cars... my ‘boring’ German golf was designed by an Italian..... who worked for fiat and Alfa Romeo before moving to VW and in his time has designed super cars... it was even built by the same people who built the Spyker C8 Spyder which no one ever could describe as boring, but I guess Italian designed cars are boring if they have a German car brand on the badge.

Does that work the other way when an Italian car is for example nailed together in a factory in the Poland? Same Italian designers, same materials. Just a different different country?

AndyRKett said:

Many people think Kim Kardashian is interesting, do you? I certainly don’t.... What’s you’re point here? 5 times as many golfs get made every year than Pandas so you could draw from that the Golf is 5 times more interesting, or 5 times as desirable? It’s one of the best selling cars in the world so in that respect it definitely doesn’t seem to be “stale”



I’ve not commented on productive posts that you’ve made as I’ve yet to see any. Usually you seemingly only come here to post about how much you dislike other things that you don’t have.





Now back on actual topic your comment about boring German cars... my ‘boring’ German golf was designed by an Italian..... who worked for fiat and Alfa Romeo before moving to VW and in his time has designed super cars... it was even built by the same people who built the Spyker C8 Spyder which no one ever could describe as boring, but I guess Italian designed cars are boring if they have a German car brand on the badge.



Does that work the other way when an Italian car is for example nailed together in a factory in the Poland? Same Italian designers, same materials. Just a different different country?

Click to expand...

Very feisty today Andy, on top of your game

I don’t find her interesting but fair enough if people do! Ain’t gonna pretend my celebrities are ‘superior’ or take it thick when someone slates ‘em too but.

The design is stale - in my opinion. As Nigel said, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Very true. Hotpoint washing machines sell well too, way better than the design-ey ones. But we’ve all seen the white box and round hole thirty times over by now, haven’t we? ;-)

I am not shocked to hear that you don’t find any of my posts, as in zero, across all the threads for the past few years useful. There are lots of lighthearted joking and other opinion rambling threads but also some revelations in fixing Pandas and good discussion - but it’d take a rational perspective to see and admit that, right?

You know when I refer to nationality of cars it’s just the brand and style - if we went down to the component level then every car would near enough be German ..

SB1500 said:

if we went down to the component level then every car would near enough be German ..

Click to expand...

Really?? So your panda and my Punto, are actually German?

Ferrari 488, German.

Toyota Corolla German?

Well I would never have believed it but must be true if you say so.

The best bit here is you literally compared the looks of the mk8 golf to a Toyota then slated German styling, you could do with making your mind up here, does it look like a Japanese car or does it look like a German car.

We could go round in circles all day, I don’t believe for one second you have any idea what makes a good looking or stylish car, you just see the golf and don’t like it based purely on the fact it is a VW youhave some weird perceived idea that people in golfs and VW in general are looking down at you so you need to fight back all the time, yet they literally wouldn’t notice you.

If you really took car design seriously then you’d appreciate that there have been 3 models of Golf in the time you model of panda has been on the road, and then that was only a face lift of a 2003 model car.
However you’re hear arguing about the golf being stale?
The panda is also the most utilitarian car fiat make, it is literally meant only to do a job and not to wow the world with its looks, yet you call the golf boring.
But then it would take a rational perspective to admit that, right?

Now don’t get me wrong I quite like the panda it is basic and it does its job and it’s not trying to be anything it’s not, I would have no problems with owning one. What I cannot say about I though nor I think would any rational person say that it is stylish or interesting as cars go. What I don’t do though is go around the forum posting repeatedly my views of the appearance of the fiat panda, I’m sure no one really cares because it just does it’s job, your repeated posting about your hatred of the appearance of the new golf doesn’t really matter too, as you’re never going to buy one, and do you honestly think someone would change their mind about buying one who comes to the Fiat forum.

There are plenty of things that sell well and people buy them including a hotpoint washing machine, in a contest between a golf and a panda which one do you think would be most likely voted to look like a washing machine ?

If people are not buying the golf for its looks yet they are paying twice as much for the clearly less boring and better looking panda, then I suppose it simply must be a far superior car in every other way shape and form despite its looks

AndyRKett said:

Really?? So your panda and my Punto, are actually German?



Ferrari 488, German.



Toyota Corolla German?



Well I would never have believed it but must be true if you say so.



The best bit here is you literally compared the looks of the mk8 golf to a Toyota then slated German styling, you could do with making your mind up here, does it look like a Japanese car or does it look like a German car.



We could go round in circles all day, I don’t believe for one second you have any idea what makes a good looking or stylish car, you just see the golf and don’t like it based purely on the fact it is a VW youhave some weird perceived idea that people in golfs and VW in general are looking down at you so you need to fight back all the time, yet they literally wouldn’t notice you.



If you really took car design seriously then you’d appreciate that there have been 3 models of Golf in the time you model of panda has been on the road, and then that was only a face lift of a 2003 model car.

However you’re hear arguing about the golf being stale?

The panda is also the most utilitarian car fiat make, it is literally meant only to do a job and not to wow the world with its looks, yet you call the golf boring.

But then it would take a rational perspective to admit that, right?



Now don’t get me wrong I quite like the panda it is basic and it does its job and it’s not trying to be anything it’s not, I would have no problems with owning one. What I cannot say about I though nor I think would any rational person say that it is stylish or interesting as cars go. What I don’t do though is go around the forum posting repeatedly my views of the appearance of the fiat panda, I’m sure no one really cares because it just does it’s job, your repeated posting about your hatred of the appearance of the new golf doesn’t really matter too, as you’re never going to buy one, and do you honestly think someone would change their mind about buying one who comes to the Fiat forum.



There are plenty of things that sell well and people buy them including a hotpoint washing machine, in a contest between a golf and a panda which one do you think would be most likely voted to look like a washing machine ?



If people are not buying the golf for its looks yet they are paying twice as much for the clearly less boring and better looking panda, then I suppose it simply must be a far superior car in every other way shape and form despite its looks

Click to expand...

That’s it, let it all out pal! Top notch responses tonight. We’re both waffling now ;-)

You know the point I’m making re: components. They’re all loaded with Bosch sensors. If you get really technical, every car has some components from all countries. My stake in the ground was the badge on the front

The Golf looks like the Auris, see the big circles on the image. The Auris came first, see Wikipedia for precise date of launch.

We do go in circles because you get triggered every time I or anyone else mocks German cars. I know you’re English, but that’s so characteristic of you to act like a German businessman who takes everything serious and does not find jokes amusing when doing business ;-) lighten up, it’s the Blighty way!

I have my opinions and taste in cars and you don’t have to agree. I appreciate all the times you reply and tell me I’m wrong.. thanks for reminding me. I still like the Panda and don’t like the Golf.

I’m very open about the fact it’s my opinion and that doesn’t mean you need to agree.

The Panda current generation is clearly over styled for its segment. It’s got style to spare. It’s not everyone’s cup of tea, but look at those squircles, square cup holders, square wheel arches... it’s style alright! For better of for worse. Quirky. It’s like a fancy washing machine, if you will. The Golf is stale IMO.

I reckon people ain’t buying either as often as they are re mortgaging the home and financing a Golf and who are taking a Panda out on mobility probably more times than not. But it makes no difference to me, still love the Panda. Still frown at the Golf.

I just don’t like German cars mate. If you get offended by that then that’s really down to you to solve. They are what they are. It’s unlikely you’ll ever convince me otherwise, but that’s okay - that’s not your job. Phew.

I am aware of how little 23 year old guys my age would even remotely consider anything with a Fiat badge and where my opinions fit into the status quo [read: they don’t]. That’s still okay, I’m not trying to convince anyone of anything. My minds made up.

Now, I don’t know if it’s the time or the mention of the Golf so much, but I’m about to fall asleep.

Enjoy your weekend. Enjoy your Golf. Just try to remember some weirdos like me aren’t as fond as them as everybody seems to be and well all sleep better at night!

SB1500 said:

That’s it, let it all out pal! Top notch responses tonight. We’re both waffling now ;-)

You know the point I’m making re: components. They’re all loaded with Bosch sensors. If you get really technical, every car has some components from all countries. My stake in the ground was the badge on the front

The Golf looks like the Auris, see the big circles on the image. The Auris came first, see Wikipedia for precise date of launch.

We do go in circles because you get triggered every time I or anyone else mocks German cars. I know you’re English, but that’s so characteristic of you to act like a German businessman who takes everything serious and does not find jokes amusing when doing business ;-) lighten up, it’s the Blighty way!

I have my opinions and taste in cars and you don’t have to agree. I appreciate all the times you reply and tell me I’m wrong.. thanks for reminding me. I still like the Panda and don’t like the Golf.

I’m very open about the fact it’s my opinion and that doesn’t mean you need to agree.

The Panda current generation is clearly over styled for its segment. It’s got style to spare. It’s not everyone’s cup of tea, but look at those squircles, square cup holders, square wheel arches... it’s style alright! For better of for worse. Quirky. It’s like a fancy washing machine, if you will. The Golf is stale IMO.

I reckon people ain’t buying either as often as they are re mortgaging the home and financing a Golf and who are taking a Panda out on mobility probably more times than not. But it makes no difference to me, still love the Panda. Still frown at the Golf.

I just don’t like German cars mate. If you get offended by that then that’s really down to you to solve. They are what they are. It’s unlikely you’ll ever convince me otherwise, but that’s okay - that’s not your job. Phew.

I am aware of how little 23 year old guys my age would even remotely consider anything with a Fiat badge and where my opinions fit into the status quo [read: they don’t]. That’s still okay, I’m not trying to convince anyone of anything. My minds made up.

Now, I don’t know if it’s the time or the mention of the Golf so much, but I’m about to fall asleep.

Enjoy your weekend. Enjoy your Golf. Just try to remember some weirdos like me aren’t as fond as them as everybody seems to be and well all sleep better at night!

Click to expand...

.

So hears how I will solve the problem a I have, every time you point out how much you hate Volkswagens I will highlight how much better than your car they are and how you are clearly jealous, because why would you be so vocal on something that doesn’t actually matter if you’re not jealous. Clearly you realise now you should have bought an Up Or a polo and then at least your car wouldn’t be in the garage right now having a ton of work done on the engine and gearbox before the warranty runs out. Seriously, needing gearbox and engine work on a 3 year old car with lower milage is never a good thing. At least they’ve given you another car to use for the time being, even then your seem to have realised it’s a better car. Some people do like to pretend they are happy to make do when they clearly want more, but then the golf does cost twice as much as a panda so sometimes making do is not a choice when they wish for more. Have a good weekend not driving your own car due to faults your car has

AndyRKett said:

.



So hears how I will solve the problem a I have, every time you point out how much you hate Volkswagens I will highlight how much better than your car they are and how you are clearly jealous, because why would you be so vocal on something that doesn’t actually matter if you’re not jealous. Clearly you realise now you should have bought an Up Or a polo and then at least your car wouldn’t be in the garage right now having a ton of work done on the engine and gearbox before the warranty runs out. Seriously, needing gearbox and engine work on a 3 year old car with lower milage is never a good thing. At least they’ve given you another car to use for the time being, even then your seem to have realised it’s a better car. Some people do like to pretend they are happy to make do when they clearly want more, but then the golf does cost twice as much as a panda so sometimes making do is not a choice when they wish for more. Have a good weekend not driving your own car due to faults your car has

Click to expand...

Isn’t that what you’ve been doing? Either way I look forward to being educated on something I’ve literally agreed with you on ;-)

I’m just a jealous, remorseful buyer of a silly car made from inferior faulty parts and am paying the price for my decisions because I’m that ignorant - that must be it!!!

Be that as it ‘must’, I still think the Golf is a boring econo-box - maybe it’s fantastic like you say it must be - but in my view I’d choose that cheap, inferior but unassuming and currently in the garage Panda every day of the week. And when it’s out of warranty I’m sure I’ll be revising old threads remembering how to change that sump, how to replace the radiator, how to waxoil the rear axle... The things we do for the things we love, eh?

I’ll keep poking fun at how mundane German cars are. And of course, you’ll keep getting triggered etc.

You must be fun at football matches being watched at the pub when everybody is unapologetically bigging up their team and slamming the others. They’re all there having banter and somewhere on the side you’re there with the notepad making a deep analysis about your theories on the underlying psychological activity going on ... safe to say I’m about as interested in it here as those football fans would be there.

My advice to you;
- it’s ‘here’, not ‘hear’

- You’re welcome to post your opinions as you do, and you say you’ll continue to do. That’s good. Just because I don’t agree doesn’t mean I think you should be quiet

- I’m still going to have an irrational fanboy love for my Panda regardless of how inferior, problematic and ill-designed it may or may not be lol You may make many valid criticisms and jokes about it, I’ll not argue with you.

See I can accept different view points, laughs at jokes even about the car I like. After all, I didn’t design it. Why would I take it personally?

You just have to accept that as much as some people might think Fiat a joke, people like me (and I speak for myself) think the Golf is the epitome of boring ;-)

The triggering would suggest some kind of similar deep rooted physiological shortcoming on your end but firstly I’m not a therapist qualified to say so and secondly that’d water down my point like the Golfs design has been watered down over the generations...

Who wouldn’t have a great weekend flying about in a Fiat 500 that they don’t own?! Once you get over the fact that people are expecting you to get out in your high heels and grab your handbag it’s actually a fun little car. But I’m already missing my beloved Panda - I know you can’t understand but some on here will ;-) but I’m sure you’ll understand the first bit since you drive a purple golf convertible if memory serves me right... then again I don’t think any designers, not even Bertone have ever taken a car and made a convertible version look even ‘as good’. But it’s a good attempt for VW!

Looking forward to your further quotes on my posts. Lots more fun to be poked at German cars - I literally have nothing better to do with my time. Apparently you don’t either! Have a great weekend driving your Golf, the greatest car in the world ;-)

AndyRKett said:

.



So hears how I will solve the problem a I have, every time you point out how much you hate Volkswagens I will highlight how much better than your car they are and how you are clearly jealous, because why would you be so vocal on something that doesn’t actually matter if you’re not jealous. Clearly you realise now you should have bought an Up Or a polo and then at least your car wouldn’t be in the garage right now having a ton of work done on the engine and gearbox before the warranty runs out. Seriously, needing gearbox and engine work on a 3 year old car with lower milage is never a good thing. At least they’ve given you another car to use for the time being, even then your seem to have realised it’s a better car. Some people do like to pretend they are happy to make do when they clearly want more, but then the golf does cost twice as much as a panda so sometimes making do is not a choice when they wish for more. Have a good weekend not driving your own car due to faults your car has

Click to expand...

I thought I’d add this here. A picture of the Panda. What’s not to love? Unassuming, embodies the style of the Italians - after all, it’s a proudly made export of their values, culture and history and their solution and offering across all of Europe in helping a lot of pretty average people solve their mobility needs.

It’s not sporty or sleek or full of superficial ‘metal finishes’ like other small cars. Because it’s not sporty or sleek. It’s very dutiful.

It’s not perfect. This forum is perhaps the biggest resource supporting all of its faults, shortcomings and whatnot.

But I once read a quote that went something like this “it is the imperfections of the people and things in the world that we fall in love with because they give meaning and purpose to the things we set out to do”.

Had my last Panda been one of those boring, superior flawless Golfs, I’d never have learnt half the DIY mechanical skills I have now. Maybe that’s why I’m so loyal to my apparently crappy car. But a hell of a lot of other people for their own reasons seem to love it just as much ;-)

And a hell of a lot of people around the world make fun of German cars as much as me, so suck it up Andy good sir

It's official. Auto-Express driver power survey 2019 has the Panda in their top 10 most reliable cars to buy. In at number 8. They credit the Panda's simplicity as being the main cause.

Not an Up, Citigo, Mii, Picanto, i10, Suzuki Ignis or Celero, or any other city car in sight! The 7 slightly higher placed cars are either Toyota/Lexus or big Kias. Cars which cost a lot more.

Ill stick with my panda too had 5 from 1986 to present never left me stranded anywhere, a golf i owned for 1 year left me stranded 3 times and cost around a grand for repairs, and on the day i traded it in it left about a pint of oil on the forecourt, luckily the dealer didnt notice as the trade had been agreed a few days previous and i parked it out of the way.

AndyRKett said:

Ferrari 488, German.

Toyota Corolla German?

Click to expand...

Indian

There's always a level of unreliability in any car and any brand..**** happens basically.

What is quite amusing on some levels is the amount of cognitive dissonance that people will apply to their own cars to keep justifying an allegiance to a particular brand regardless of evidence to the contrary that their opinion is wrong.

As happens every once in a while you have a conversation in the office where someone needs a new car and people wade in with their 2p.

There's always one with "I'd only ever buy a X it's never let me down, it's only had a few age related things but it's done 120k miles so you'd expect that".

They then reel off the few things, new crank, new pistons, new turbo, gearbox rebuild...at which point you think "are you aware that the short block and gearbox are not normally considered consumables?". Also as they didn't stop whinging about it for a week you are aware it did let them down, on their summer holiday, and left them stranded 200 miles from home requiring an epic recovery relay.

In a work environment you let this slide because at the end of the day doesn't affect you at all other than providing amusement when the old reliable Passat is in the garage for the 4th time in 2 months.

But all brands have issues so do your research and buy what works for you as there's no such thing as a reliable brand these days. You can play the odds, buy the one with the best chance of running well with your usage pattern but an amount of luck will also play a part.

StevenRB45 said:

But all brands have issues so do your research and buy what works for you as there's no such thing as a reliable brand these days. You can play the odds, buy the one with the best chance of running well with your usage pattern but an amount of luck will also play a part.

Click to expand...

Probably the best single paragraph summary of the new car buying lottery I've sseen in recent times .

I spoke recently to a chap who said he'd never buy a Ford, because his grandad's Anglia was always breaking down.

These days, even different models of the same car can have vastly different reliability prospects.

jrkitching said:

These days, even different models of the same car can have vastly different reliability prospects.

Click to expand...

It gets even more difficult in the era of multinational platform and component shares.

What do a Mazda 3, a BMW 1 series, Mk5 Golf and many many many other cars have in common?

The Teves Mk60 obviously! I can hear the slapped foreheads as everyone realises they knew that.

For those whose foreheads are unslapped, it's a very jazzy abs pump which makes all the modern driver aids possible. It pumps the brakes for Abs, brakes for the traction control and individually brakes the wheels for the esp.

Again for those unaware...what does it matter? It has a significant design flaw and can fail in certain applications at as little as 4 years old but even if it lasts longer it's unlikely to last the life of the car and a replacement can be up to 1500 quid.

So if this happened to you and you swore off a brand because of it...theres a good chance your new car would have one too!

SB1500 said:

Had my last Panda been one of those boring, superior flawless Golfs, I’d never have learnt half the DIY mechanical skills I have now.

Click to expand...

Lmao, the best defence you have is that your panda is better because it always went wrong and needed work doing therefore you learned something in fixing it.... worst defence of anything ever.

sandeel999 said:

It's official. Auto-Express driver power survey 2019 has the Panda in their top 10 most reliable cars to buy. In at number 8. They credit the Panda's simplicity as being the main cause.

a golf i owned for 1 year left me stranded 3 times and cost around a grand for repairs, and on the day i traded it in it left about a pint of oil on the forecourt, luckily the dealer didnt notice as the trade had been agreed a few days previous and i parked it out of the way.

Click to expand...

Interestingly despite being very reliable in this survey, it didn’t feature at all in the best cars to own list, which the mk7 golf made, the fiat 500 made that list too but not the panda.

However kudos for actually having owned a golf and having some experience, I’m gonna guess that it wasn’t a brand new golf given that it was shedding the contents of its engine.
Any old and mistreated car has the potential to behave like this.

It’s worth noting that the only reason reliability was brought into question is that SB1500’s panda is currently with the Fiat dealer having the engine and gearbox rebuilt because of problem seals.

AndyRKett said:

Interestingly despite being very reliable in this survey, it didn’t feature at all in the best cars to own list, which the mk7 golf made, the fiat 500 made that list too but not the panda.

Click to expand...

Erm this is just plain incorrect.

Here it is in said list, slightly above an Audi A3..although it is one point below the Golf.



Skim reading.. it's the enemy of us all.